Coping with Lag/The lack thereof

[Cr8zyK1LL3r]

About the optimum solution, It's just logical stuffs combining from a few facts + a general solution. Nothing like Rocket Science really..... I guess the best way for me to explain it so that everyone can see it clearly is by looking at the different cases.

Scenario 1 - both players get effected : The fact which the setup has different timing cannot be changed. And It wouldn't effect you only, It would effect other players as well. So If u have to play against an equal level player, u are practically on the same ground because it effects both of u. So It would all come down to whoever "adjust" to it faster win OR whoever has better "strategy" win. And if u play against a worse player, most likely u still win since both of u get effected by it. So if u get -2 on ur overall performance, he would get -2 as well unless his setup at home has closer delay than urs. And that will go to Scenario 2.

Scenario 2 - only U get effected : If u play against a player who doesn't get effected by the lag less setup (In this case, a) Maybe some "less combo/1-2 frame timing relying characters" or b) people who has this setup at home) there's nothing much u can do about it since they already know the "system" better than u right from the start. And the outcome depends a lot on who knows the system better. So basically, If this player level = ur level and know the system better than u, u would lose no matter what. Or If his level is lower than urs, that means u still can beat him ONLY IF u don't depend on combo to avoid making mistakes from ur executions and depend more on "strategy".

In the end, Depend on strategy to win seems to be an optimum solution since u don't have to worry about the other player knows the system or not. Nor u need to worry about the change in the setup because It will fall back into Scenario 1 & 2.
So I worked my way backward and started to develop my strategy. The strategy I had was:

1. Relying on easy damage & basic combo where timing is "less required" (for example, for viper, I do st.heavy punch --> ex sessimic hammer instead of st. heavy punch --> feint --> blah blah....., and jump in heavy kick --> mid punch --> thunder knuckle instead of st.mid punch --> cr.mid punch, and so on.......). This way, I can still keep 80% of my damage and reduce the risk of missing combo by over 80% if we don't want to call it completely. And I think ALL the characters should have basic combos where damage is 80% as good as full-hard combos. I could be wrong in a few cases but you know what i mean.

2. Since this setup is lag less, reaction plays a very important factor compares to normal games. Which also means, Anti-air, tech throw now can be performed easier + faster = more effective. Zonning & footsies tools also benefit a lot in this case but I didn't name it here because at the moment, that is our weakness and Nobody could master it (punish sweeps like Daigo). But thanks to that, it open number 3 for me.

3. More footsies and zonning, combine with number 2, this is an ultimate tool. What else, NZ levels cannot punish sweeps so feel free to stick your foot out.

4. Full damage combo or punish "will not" work as well in this case coz my timing has already been changed. PLUS, being able to execute it in once round doesn't mean i can pull it out on another rounds.

So, in general, what i did was sticking to basic combos to minimize the risk, Used more tools which benefit from lag free, and played a safe strategy. That is why in the 3 vs 3, I didn't use any fancy moves or mix-up but still did fine and processed pretty far. And you probably has already noticed that I used Sessimic hammer A LOT more compare to normal games coz this is 1 of the benefit which is listed in number 2&3. I can keep going on and on for the whole day but I think you already understand it by now or you have already understood it before seeing the post and think what's I've said is pretty useless. But that's what I've said myself, it's all logical and easy to see stuffs.

Any more questions ?? feel free to ask. But please don't flame. I just want to help. Peace !! ^_^

[Rorooze]

so basically you're saying that the lag free setup is better because you can react better, but because you are not used to it your combo timing is off, but thats not really a problem?

thank god.

thank you.

lag topic over. no more qq.

[Cr8zyK1LL3r]

Yes it's better because you can react better but you are not used to it so your combo timing is off. That's corrected. It wouldn't be a problem to the OUTCOME but it will be a problem to the PERFORMANCE. Because our timing is off, it made us look like scrubs even in the Grand Final. Ask how many players right here feel like scrubs in the 3v3 compare to their normal casuals ??

Basically, What I'm saying is for a different delay setup:
the OUTCOME of the match won't change when you find the right solution to it which is pretty easy to see.
BUT the PERFORMANCE will be effected by it.

OUTCOME = Win/lose
PERFORMANCE = Combo execution, max damage combo, reset/mix up timing, etc........

And when people watch tournament clips, they don't care about the OUTCOME, they don't give a fuck about me becoming the champion or you becoming the champion, they only interest in PERFORMANCE to determine that country's level.

I hope i made it clear enough ??

[Rorooze]

It doesn't matter what it looks like, as long as you know within your heart that you can pull off flashy combos then thats all you need.

BELIEVE IT.

Catch you at ranbats on Friday! YEAH BOI.

[Cr8zyK1LL3r]

So, regarding back to the solution.

If you say : "I could have won the match", then you are wrong, it won't change the outcome unless you put a few assumptions such as : you find yourself a solution and the other players don't, but that's another scenario already.

And if you say : "I can do better than that", then you are right, you can perform way better than that on different setups. But tough luck, that's the setup designed for tournament.

@ Rorooze : I really wanted to believe it and I tried to believe it many times but I always get disappointed. Maybe "my believing" wasn't strong enough to twist the fact.

[zos'la]

It doesn't matter what it looks like, as long as you know within your heart that you can pull off flashy combos then thats all you need.

BELIEVE IT.

Catch you at ranbats on Friday! YEAH BOI.

This I can't agree on!!! I play to make teh girls woooooohooooooo....oh wait... there is no girls watching >.< damn.

on topic, its teh flashy combos plays a major factor in the game, its like I pull a normal heavy dmg combo and it does 50 dmg, but now if I pull the flashy combo and it does 70 dmg. For the same punishment I can effective do 4 things.
1: Do MAX dmg on punish or whatever.
2:If the player is on 120 hp max and I do  x2 50 dmg combo he will still be alive and thats like giving them a chance to come back, whereas if i did 2x 70 dmg combo he is dead

3: the flashy combos does more stun^^ and what does this mean? the other player will feel ALOT of pressure because in 1 -2 hits after my heavy combo they will be stuff, that is practically GG for them. So your game is pretty much secure.

4: I just like to look good because those flashy combo is what motivates me to play even harder^^ u will feel the flow within you and its like you can do what you like against that player since you're confident with you execution.
meh maybe this is too hard for some of you to get muahahaha

anyways why am  I explaining when I told Hue to shut -.- cao.


PEACE!!!

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

Fuck, ive been posting in the other thread. I didnt see this one.

Anyway, In the other thread, i had a massive (and awesome) post about all this, so ill just repeat the part that applys.

About the optimum solution, It's just logical stuffs combining from a few facts + a general solution. Nothing like Rocket Science really..... I guess the best way for me to explain it so that everyone can see it clearly is by looking at the different cases.

Scenario 1 - both players get effected : The fact which the setup has different timing cannot be changed. And It wouldn't effect you only, It would effect other players as well. So If u have to play against an equal level player, u are practically on the same ground because it effects both of u. So It would all come down to whoever "adjust" to it faster win OR whoever has better "strategy" win. And if u play against a worse player, most likely u still win since both of u get effected by it. So if u get -2 on ur overall performance, he would get -2 as well unless his setup at home has closer delay than urs. And that will go to Scenario 2.

Scenario 2 - only U get effected : If u play against a player who doesn't get effected by the lag less setup (In this case, a) Maybe some "less combo/1-2 frame timing relying characters" or b) people who has this setup at home) there's nothing much u can do about it since they already know the "system" better than u right from the start. And the outcome depends a lot on who knows the system better. So basically, If this player level = ur level and know the system better than u, u would lose no matter what. Or If his level is lower than urs, that means u still can beat him ONLY IF u don't depend on combo to avoid making mistakes from ur executions and depend more on "strategy".

In the end, Depend on strategy to win seems to be an optimum solution since u don't have to worry about the other player knows the system or not. Nor u need to worry about the change in the setup because It will fall back into Scenario 1 & 2.
So I worked my way backward and started to develop my strategy. The strategy I had was:

1. Relying on easy damage & basic combo where timing is "less required" (for example, for viper, I do st.heavy punch --> ex sessimic hammer instead of st. heavy punch --> feint --> blah blah....., and jump in heavy kick --> mid punch --> thunder knuckle instead of st.mid punch --> cr.mid punch, and so on.......). This way, I can still keep 80% of my damage and reduce the risk of missing combo by over 80% if we don't want to call it completely. And I think ALL the characters should have basic combos where damage is 80% as good as full-hard combos. I could be wrong in a few cases but you know what i mean.

2. Since this setup is lag less, reaction plays a very important factor compares to normal games. Which also means, Anti-air, tech throw now can be performed easier + faster = more effective. Zonning & footsies tools also benefit a lot in this case but I didn't name it here because at the moment, that is our weakness and Nobody could master it (punish sweeps like Daigo). But thanks to that, it open number 3 for me.

3. More footsies and zonning, combine with number 2, this is an ultimate tool. What else, NZ levels cannot punish sweeps so feel free to stick your foot out.

4. Full damage combo or punish "will not" work as well in this case coz my timing has already been changed. PLUS, being able to execute it in once round doesn't mean i can pull it out on another rounds.

So, in general, what i did was sticking to basic combos to minimize the risk, Used more tools which benefit from lag free, and played a safe strategy. That is why in the 3 vs 3, I didn't use any fancy moves or mix-up but still did fine and processed pretty far. And you probably has already noticed that I used Sessimic hammer A LOT more compare to normal games coz this is 1 of the benefit which is listed in number 2&3. I can keep going on and on for the whole day but I think you already understand it by now or you have already understood it before seeing the post and think what's I've said is pretty useless. But that's what I've said myself, it's all logical and easy to see stuffs.

Any more questions ?? feel free to ask. But please don't flame. I just want to help. Peace !! ^_^

This is total truth. In my match against Skullator for example, i stopped going for RSF's because i was dropping them, and just went for simple punishes like s.hk -> guac because i knew i wouldn't fuck it up. The match takes a bit longer, but you dont throw the game away because of retarded drops.

HOWEVER, you only need to do this for a little while until you are used to the setup. Once you get used to it, you can go for all the combos you like AND have easier reactions. THIS is the best way to go imo. It may take you days or weeks to get used to the setup, but when it happens, you WILL be Godlike again. Even moreso than you were before.

Lag free simply takes TIME to get used to. Once you are used to a lag free setup, your game will be BETTER than if you were playing on a laggy setup that you are also used to. This is the whole point of a lag free setup. We want people to be the BEST they can be. If youre awesome on a laggy setup, but crap on a lag free setup, then youre not able to reach your potential as a player.

You NEED to be playing on a lag free setup to become the best you can be. This is why i think everyone needs to toughen up. Stop the crying, and play with no lag until youre fucking awesome at it.

[Rorooze]

2:If the player is on 120 hp max and I do  x2 50 dmg combo he will still be alive and thats like giving them a chance to come back, whereas if i did 2x 70 dmg combo he is dead

3: the flashy combos does more stun^^ and what does this mean? the other player will feel ALOT of pressure because in 1 -2 hits after my heavy combo they will be stuff, that is practically GG for them. So your game is pretty much secure.

Oh ya I agree, by flashy combo I thought you meant combo's that look cool but might not be the actual best punish, etc. peace <3

[zos'la]

but in all honesty, you can argue all you want, but then go to an arcade like yifans for example or even GGs in Australia, Arcades in Japan.
ALL of these cabs setup are very similar to the speed that Hue has mentioned that most people are use to, eg: Yifan crew.
So when we play on teh so called lagless setup, we feel it to be WEIRD, so its NORMAL. because that is teh standard that the world uses, but we just have to be cool and special with out lagless setup.
All in all, we have a small community and try to have the so called best setup which majority of the world don't use?
My question is if you go to SBO, Toki... or whatever tournament, EVo even, you will fuck up hard because those setup are just like the arcades or IS the arcade. Get my point? maybe not LOL

PEACE!!!

[samurai black]

derp

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

but in all honesty, you can argue all you want, but then go to an arcade like yifans for example or even GGs in Australia, Arcades in Japan.
ALL of these cabs setup are very similar to the speed that Hue has mentioned that most people are use to, eg: Yifan crew.
So when we play on teh so called lagless setup, we feel it to be WEIRD, so its NORMAL. because that is teh standard that the world uses, but we just have to be cool and special with out lagless setup.
All in all, we have a small community and try to have the so called best setup which majority of the world don't use?
My question is if you go to SBO, Toki... or whatever tournament, EVo even, you will fuck up hard because those setup are just like the arcades or IS the arcade. Get my point? maybe not LOL

PEACE!!!

Yifans speed is retardedly slow though.

And the Yifans arcade speed is not necessarily worldwide arcade speed, especially since yifans has such crap monitors anyway. I know when i was in melbourne, the arcade speed was HEAPS different to yifans. TBH i wouldnt be using yifans as any kind of comparative tool. And for reference, the majority of the world DO aim to have as little lag as possible. Just because EVO are rocking PS3's does NOT mean they will have laggy setups. They will be going out of their way to make it have the least lag possible.

I get the point youre TRYING to make, but your information is just, well, wrong.

[Lennysaurus]

Yeah the yiffans setups are pretty bad.  I'd actually say that they are comparable if not worse to the Giga TV's.

It's interesting, cause I find that when I sucked I didn't notice the difference.  But now that I am becoming more competitive I definitely notice the difference.  I blame Ben.  I was happy in my ignorance of all this crap until he turned me into a "Lag-Snob".  Damn you Ben.

I just want to go back to the good old days when I could twirl a stick, and mash buttons with wanton abandon.

[zos'la]

The thing is that I found yifan teh same speed as the setups in teh arcade and console in aussy, so enlighten me here a bit and tell me that they are all playing on a laggy setup and they are all wrong and we are teh best...
hmmmmmmmmmmm...

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

The thing is that I found yifan teh same speed as the setups in teh arcade and console in aussy, so enlighten me here a bit and tell me that they are all playing on a laggy setup and they are all wrong and we are teh best...
hmmmmmmmmmmm...

If you had them all next to each other, you would notice the difference. Its massive. You adjust to things like this quite quickly, which is great for you. But unfortunately it means you keep a very closed mind around things like this. The setup at the 3v3 is as close to the 'world standard' as we are getting atm. This is how it is. Your idea of what the world is doing is, quite simply, incorrect.

[fluxcore]

Just because EVO are rocking PS3's does NOT mean they will have laggy setups. They will be going out of their way to make it have the least lag possible.

I get the point youre TRYING to make, but your information is just, well, wrong.

From what I understand, the evo monitors are not QUITE lagless, but are close. They DID go out of their way to purchase a whole ton of what they thought were lagless setups, it just turned out they weren't quite as good as they thought and now they are stuck with them. This is what Andy was saying right at the start, that if THEY have a laggy setup, why shouldn't we?

So I wouldn't say his information is WRONG as such.