PSN Good Games and feedback thread.

[Hydro]

Walls are great. Why do you think i write so many of them?

Anyway, i have a feeling that there is a bit of confusion around what "tiers" are.

Low tier characters ARE weaker than their high tier counterparts. This is just how it is. It cant be argued, because it is a statement of fact. Can 'what character goes where in the list' be argued? Yes. But the list definitely exists, and is there for a reason.

This does NOT mean, that these characters physically cannot win. They can. What a tier list demonstrates is essentially "how much more difficult it is to win with said character". The calibur of the player IS and always will be the primary source of 'wins' in a game. This is another statement that cant be argued.

However, on a competitive level, a low tier character acts a lot like a handicap, (ie. The lower the tier, the higher the handicap) and as such, a player needs to have a lot more up his sleeve to win his matches. (To balance the offset of using a low tier character) Relating to the "the player is what determines the match" outlook, THIS is what a tier list represents. How big a handicap youre playing with.

The above is a pretty general statement i admit. Bad character matchups are a better example of playing with a handicap. What a tier list does is measure how many good/bad matchups a character has, and how big a difference there is, and then gives the character a value based on the rest of the cast. It gives you a general idea of how good a character is in relation to the other characters.

At NO POINT does using a low tier character justify a loss. On a competitive scene, if you choose to handicap yourself, then you risk losing. If you ARE the better player, you deserve to win, and you will. I think this is the point Andy is trying to get at, but he is ignoring the 'handicap' portion. Which i feel rings pretty true.



Short version:

Better players win matches. Tiers make those wins harder.

As tenacious and eloquent as ever Will, have I told you how much I admire your insight and ability to articulate such topics fluidly as to fully engage the observer in a welcomed discussion > I'm lining up to buy a drink for you at the tourney my good man!

[Skullator]

Server first Sarth and 3 drakes ach. OOOOOOOOOH

World first Yogg zero.

SS plz. title, toon and mount saying  "Sup Smoof"

I've got you something even better.. the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grT9Awoud_U

Listen carefully and right after we get the kill I say "Sup Smoof" in my native tongue.

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

As tenacious and eloquent as ever Will, have I told you how much I admire your insight and ability to articulate such topics fluidly as to fully engage the observer in a welcomed discussion > I'm lining up to buy a drink for you at the tourney my good man!

Some people aim for wealth, success...I aim for free beers.

[HoneyBadger]

Server first Sarth and 3 drakes ach. OOOOOOOOOH

World first Yogg zero.

SS plz. title, toon and mount saying  "Sup Smoof"

I've got you something even better.. the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grT9Awoud_U

Listen carefully and right after we get the kill I say "Sup Smoof" in my native tongue.

Pfft anyone can go youtube

[zos'la]

Walls are great. Why do you think i write so many of them?

Anyway, i have a feeling that there is a bit of confusion around what "tiers" are.

Low tier characters ARE weaker than their high tier counterparts. This is just how it is. It cant be argued, because it is a statement of fact. Can 'what character goes where in the list' be argued? Yes. But the list definitely exists, and is there for a reason.

This does NOT mean, that these characters physically cannot win. They can. What a tier list demonstrates is essentially "how much more difficult it is to win with said character". The calibur of the player IS and always will be the primary source of 'wins' in a game. This is another statement that cant be argued.

However, on a competitive level, a low tier character acts a lot like a handicap, (ie. The lower the tier, the higher the handicap) and as such, a player needs to have a lot more up his sleeve to win his matches. (To balance the offset of using a low tier character) Relating to the "the player is what determines the match" outlook, THIS is what a tier list represents. How big a handicap youre playing with.

The above is a pretty general statement i admit. Bad character matchups are a better example of playing with a handicap. What a tier list does is measure how many good/bad matchups a character has, and how big a difference there is, and then gives the character a value based on the rest of the cast. It gives you a general idea of how good a character is in relation to the other characters.

At NO POINT does using a low tier character justify a loss. On a competitive scene, if you choose to handicap yourself, then you risk losing. If you ARE the better player, you deserve to win, and you will. I think this is the point Andy is trying to get at, but he is ignoring the 'handicap' portion. Which i feel rings pretty true.



Short version:

Better players win matches. Tiers make those wins harder.

fast learner. right on the point.

LOL and James, I won't wall it here, I'm too lazy. as you can see most of my post won't go over 4-5 sentences

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

fast learner. right on the point.

LOL and James, I won't wall it here, I'm too lazy. as you can see most of my post won't go over 4-5 sentences

Learner? This is the same thing i have posted in EVERY TOPIC so far. I just made it a bit clearer in that post.

[Hydro]

fast learner. right on the point.

LOL and James, I won't wall it here, I'm too lazy. as you can see most of my post won't go over 4-5 sentences

Learner? This is the same thing i have posted in EVERY TOPIC so far. I just made it a bit clearer in that post.

. . . Yeah man, I mean, nobody does "Condescending Prick" quite like Andy.

[Skullator]

Server first Sarth and 3 drakes ach. OOOOOOOOOH

World first Yogg zero.

SS plz. title, toon and mount saying  "Sup Smoof"

I've got you something even better.. the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grT9Awoud_U

Listen carefully and right after we get the kill I say "Sup Smoof" in my native tongue.

Pfft anyone can go youtube

/facepalm

GG's Imagneto!
Prooooo Dictator, 20 hit poke combo into poke dmg ultra made me rofl

[[NIUE] Optimus DAVE]

fast learner. right on the point.

LOL and James, I won't wall it here, I'm too lazy. as you can see most of my post won't go over 4-5 sentences

Learner? This is the same thing i have posted in EVERY TOPIC so far. I just made it a bit clearer in that post.

. . . Yeah man, I mean, nobody does "Condescending Prick" quite like Andy.

lol oh no vipers got those fangs out

[fluxcore]

What a tier list does is measure how many good/bad matchups a character has, and how big a difference there is, and then gives the character a value based on the rest of the cast. It gives you a general idea of how good a character is in relation to the other characters.

Actually, to be astoundingly pedantic, what you're describing is a character matchup chart. While this in general is very close to the tier list, it often gives a skewed notion of the true char pickings in a competitive environment.

For instance, one character can have lots and lots of advantage matchups, but loses to the top tier chars. Zangief is a reasonable example of this in SF4, he murders 90% of the cast, but loses to Ryu/Sagat pretty heavily and therefore isn't actually a particularly good pick for competition. There are other chars like Akuma that have fewer advantaged matchups (and so are lower on the matchup chart), but because they don't lose quite so badly to Ryu/Sagat they are actually better picks.

The tier listing is basically a 'real world' matchup chart which takes this stuff into account.

Also, take all of this with a grain of salt, because it's so 'top-level competitive player' biased that it borders on theory fighter. Unless everyone is at the peak of their game, anything is up for grabs really.

[CptMunta]

Man this thread always suffers for tier infection.

Back on track:

Good quick games today Hydro,

Fun to play some of the other cast members for shits and giggles. We should do some more random mixups. Alot of fun 

[Cr8zyK1LL3r]

Bill & Fluxcore : well said

SkullatorNZ : Sorry to disappointed you but couldn't you tell that they were 2 different Ryu players ?? You wouldn't expect to perfect somebody who beated you 10 times in a row that easily would u? And the Akuma player was Cody, not me. ^_^

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

What a tier list does is measure how many good/bad matchups a character has, and how big a difference there is, and then gives the character a value based on the rest of the cast. It gives you a general idea of how good a character is in relation to the other characters.

Actually, to be astoundingly pedantic, what you're describing is a character matchup chart. While this in general is very close to the tier list, it often gives a skewed notion of the true char pickings in a competitive environment.

For instance, one character can have lots and lots of advantage matchups, but loses to the top tier chars. Zangief is a reasonable example of this in SF4, he murders 90% of the cast, but loses to Ryu/Sagat pretty heavily and therefore isn't actually a particularly good pick for competition. There are other chars like Akuma that have fewer advantaged matchups (and so are lower on the matchup chart), but because they don't lose quite so badly to Ryu/Sagat they are actually better picks.

The tier listing is basically a 'real world' matchup chart which takes this stuff into account.

Also, take all of this with a grain of salt, because it's so 'top-level competitive player' biased that it borders on theory fighter. Unless everyone is at the peak of their game, anything is up for grabs really.

Totally agree. That is what in my head at the time, and what i was trying to get across, but it came out slightly askew. Im glad you corrected it actually. Being pedantic pays off imo.

[CoffinDrop1]

GGs last night Hydro.
Felt a bit more comfortable with last nights matches compared to the last time as I felt I was thinking more carefully about what I would throw out and when.

Actually because I've been working on the feedback you gave me from our last encounter this may have been the difference. Not throwing out as many random fierce head butt's and focus attacks and using the vertical jump fierce P. Using more head splash's on wake up etc and being a bit more patient overall.

I noticed that you started getting stuck into the up close and personal game which definately made it more challenging for me as the openings for counter attacks are few and far between. Ended up having get the f outta dodge lol. Also there was one or 2 of burning kicks that you crossed up on me and I was thinking it was like a damn lottery trying to figure out which way to block - I missed completely.

Was good to play Claw too and I noticed you have more of a ground game with him than most. I was thinking about changing my character but I felt that I prob would have got my butt kicked plus I needed the practise.

Thanks for the training session - catch up again soon.

[Hydro]

GGs last night Hydro.
Felt a bit more comfortable with last nights matches compared to the last time as I felt I was thinking more carefully about what I would throw out and when.

Actually because I've been working on the feedback you gave me from our last encounter this may have been the difference. Not throwing out as many random fierce head butt's and focus attacks and using the vertical jump fierce P. Using more head splash's on wake up etc and being a bit more patient overall.

I noticed that you started getting stuck into the up close and personal game which definately made it more challenging for me as the openings for counter attacks are few and far between. Ended up having get the f outta dodge lol. Also there was one or 2 of burning kicks that you crossed up on me and I was thinking it was like a damn lottery trying to figure out which way to block - I missed completely.

Was good to play Claw too and I noticed you have more of a ground game with him than most. I was thinking about changing my character but I felt that I prob would have got my butt kicked plus I needed the practise.

Thanks for the training session - catch up again soon.

GGS Coffin bro,

Yeah, the rule with fighting honda with Viper I feel is 'keep him off the charge' which is why I switched up to a cross up close mix up game (really the only thing you can do without painting a big bullseye on your head), I really didn't have the option with Claw to do that, as he has no cross up for some reason, which is why the match was easily yours. Very keen for some more matches tho my bro, esp to give that Claw another whirl.

GGs Munta

Always fun matches Marc bro, I lol'd at the Honda mirror! I was surprised at your Abel too, I went a little to easy and got mashed hard hahaha! Keen for more soon as my friend.