"Play Less, Talk More"
Think back to the last game you had. In fact, if you’re an
Aucklander, think back to the last Ranbat you played in. Now think
about those games and ask yourself to remember why you lost. And I
don’t mean, “oh his Ryu did a phat DP-FADC-Ultra LOLZORSâ€. I don’t
even want you to tell me that you dropped the game winning combo.
Really think about why you lost that match. Was it because your
mid-range was weak? You got cornered a lot? Missed some throw techs?
The reason I make a point of this is that most people talk a lot
about getting better and improving on their last game, but few rarely
do.
The first “Improving NZ†article talked about actually wanting to
improve, having the mindset and attitude to feel angry when you lose,
and wanting to do something about it; but all that is a waste if you
don’t actually stop long enough to consider your errors.
This is the next hurdle that cripples Kiwi street fighters - the
ability to think about what has happened after, or what is happening
during a match. The ability to actually understand at a fundamental
level what went wrong, and to look past the excuses of missing a tech,
dropping a combo, or missing a punish. The ability to add all the
different things together that happened in a round and understand how
they all contribute to an outcome.
The solution is simple, “Play less, Talk more.â€
It’s a pretty open statement, and that's because its meaning can be
used to improve many aspects of the way our community understands the
deeper metagame.
The first part of the equation is to “Play lessâ€. Don’t buy into the
illusion that the more you play, the better you get. It’s more about
the quality of the play you are getting and the actual thinking
involved while you are playing and how much you are actually thinking
about what is happening during and after a match. After all, there is
no point in evaluating a match where people refuse to play properly.
The gains from smashing random XBOX LIVE scrubs are small. Going to
Yifan's and laying down a 15 streak against a bunch of scrubs won’t
improve your performance greatly at tournaments. Sitting at home on
your 42 inch LCD screen and practicing with 5+ frames of lag just
isn’t worth it. Playing casuals with your friend’s 2 day old Blanka
that mashes up-ball and electricity isn’t good training. We as a
community need to accept that when we are sitting down to practice, we
are playing each other properly with the intent of improving.
That's not to say that we can’t have fun, though. Every now and then
I like to pick an odd character and have a bit of fun, but it's
counter-productive for us to pick random characters and play randomly
against each other without at least giving your opponent some warning
in advance. Let your opponent know that you are going to be playing
“silly†so that they know not to waste their time if they are
interested in improving. Likewise, if they want quality play, then
make sure you oblige.
“Playing Less†doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to spend less
time on the game. What it tells us is that we should make the most
out of the time we have playing with each other, to strive for quality
over quantity, and to make sure that we play each other seriously as
much as possible.
“Talk more†is pretty basic. Talk about the game more. Talk about why
you did something during a match. Talk about a match that you are
watching, and whether you think the players are playing well, and why.
On the forums, comment when someone posts a video in a thread, and if
you don’t agree with something that someone else has said, put your
opinion across and explain why you think the way you do.
We need to stop and take a breather between games. Take a break and
think about what happened in your last game. Ask your opponent what
they thought worked and didn’t work, and think past the last 10
seconds of a round. Too often you hear someone with the same excuses:
“I would have won that if I hadn’t dropped X combo/missed my tech.†A
lot happens in a round, much more than your last throw attempt or
dropped combo. We need to realize that the round was lost because of
more than just one mistake right at the end.
We also need to actually watch and talk about games as they are
happening. I tend to find that both online and at Ranbats, I’m the
only person that ever stops to watch and talk about people playing as
they play. When someone mentions something they see in a game, we
need to do more than just nod and agree. We need to start engaging
each other and really discussing what we see is happening on the
screen. Talk about the spacing, talk about the pressure, talk about
the meter management, just stand around and talk about the games as
they happen.
Stop being scared to talk about games for fear that you know less than
the guy standing next to you. When you think about it, there are only
two outcomes to the situation: he will correct you, thus giving you
better knowledge about the situation you see, or you will bring
attention to something that they hadn’t seen themselves, and improve a
facet of their game. Either way our community wins out and our level
of knowledge increases. That’s the beauty of “Talk moreâ€: if we adopt
this into our street fighter habits, over time our whole community
starts to understand the risks and rewards of certain onscreen
actions, and we all get better and better at understanding the
metagame of Street Fighter.
“Play less, Talk more†is a dead easy philosophy to buy into. Anyone
can do it, and the benefits it will have to our community are so huge,
that it seems criminal that we haven’t been doing it more in the past.
It tells us to play and evaluate the way we play in a serious manner.
To put that “I want to win and get better†attitude in action while
playing and watching.
So, next time we’re at Ranbats and I comment on why I think X player
should have done Y, tell me I’m wrong if you think so. Tell me what
you think they should be doing and why. Better to be loud and wrong,
than quiet and scrubby.
Thanks again to Fluxcore for your help
Quote from: Ngati Kahungunu Champ on November 30, 2010, 08:29:21 PM
Stop being scared to talk about games for fear that you know less than the guy standing next to you. When you think about it, there are only two outcomes to the situation; He will correct you, thus giving you better knowledge about the situation you see, or you will bring attention to something that they hadn’t seen themselves, and improve a facet of their game. Either way our community wins out as our level of knowledge increases. That’s the beauty of “Talk moreâ€, if we adopt this into our street fighter habits, slowly over time our whole community starts to understand the risks and rewards of certain onscreen actions, and we all get better and better at understanding the metagame of Street Fighter
I completely agree.
In England those guys were mad crazy good. After you lost people you could chat to you and tell you how they bet you. I heard Ryan Hart at the Winner Stays On ranbats doing this all the time. He even heard someone whine about the shortcomings of Fuerte in the Guile matchup and say that it's bullshit and give a list of opitions for Fuerte in that situation. The Guile player would agree and say what he had trouble snuffing in the match and another Fuerte came in and chatted about it too. Ryan would go on to say that it's hard but that's the hurdle you have to deal with and there is an answer.
Maybe this is an arcade thing, me and Propafanda would talk about what beats what for ages back when we were in the CvS2 scene, we'd also talk about other players we both battled, discussing their strengths in weaknesses.
Sometimes I'll say "All you have to do in this matchup is "this" and it gives me a world of trouble". I would even stop myself and say "I shouldn't be telling you how to beat me." But I think I should.
If you are winning, even making the game harder for yourself might be a good thing.
Also don't hate on random select that shit is awesome! :P I feel like I'm in a slump with a character and want to mix things up Random is awesome. I find things from other characters that I can apply back to Rose and I get a wider understanding of what tools people use and like to abuse. Sure I don't know if I'll win with random and I get a bit pissed for having a rubbish adon. But for me at least, when it's random select it's still on. I'm not playing silly buggers.
Awesome articles Lenny. You guys should front page this shit. :)
I've got these articles printed out, as I feel it doesn't purely apply to only Street Fighter, but fighters in general. I've been reading over both articles now and using it to my advantage in BlazBlue.
Thanks for the time and effort spent writing these, they are doing a whole lot of good!
Thanks for the kind comments guys. The idea is to get people to thinking about our scene and the "scrubbier" elements in it. It gives us something to make reference to, and to call each other out on, to make sure that we get stronger.
Quote from: CptMunta on November 30, 2010, 10:34:55 PM
Also don't hate on random select that shit is awesome! :P I feel like I'm in a slump with a character and want to mix things up Random is awesome. I find things from other characters that I can apply back to Rose and I get a wider understanding of what tools people use and like to abuse. Sure I don't know if I'll win with random and I get a bit pissed for having a rubbish adon. But for me at least, when it's random select it's still on. I'm not playing silly buggers.
I'm not sure what you mean by random TBH Marc. Random can mean different things I suppose. Like random select, Playing Random (eg: shoryuken loads and jumping in all the time), playing a character you don't use often.
Its fine to have secondary characters as long as you play them properly and in a serious-competitive mindset, but if you are playing random select and attempting to create an environment where you and your opponent are learning then its pretty hit and miss. I can't play C. Viper at all, if I get her in a random select battle neither me nor my opponent are going to learn anything regardless of how serious I play with her.
Like I say in the article though, it's fine to have fun. If you or your opponent agree to have loltimes then that's entirely up to you, but this article is about highlighting the fact that if you want to get better, you need to understand that just playing is not enough and that you have to "flip the switch" into serious mode if you want value for the time you are putting in.
What about the environment you're playing in? I always thought this was something to consider in this topic of discussion. First and foremost, not everyone grew up in a busy arcade setting and the difference between playing at home with friends and playing with people in an arcade, tournament or casuals can also have a big mental impact. How we are affected and deal with this is different for everybody.
Just something I thought worth considering, as playing with a lot of people around can be a big social scare for some people and ultimately will affect the way they play.
Out of all of the points mentioned, this would have to be my biggest challenge.
Quote from: Squares on December 01, 2010, 12:20:49 AM
What about the environment you're playing in? I always thought this was something to consider in this topic of discussion. First and foremost, not everyone grew up in a busy arcade setting and the difference between playing at home with friends and playing with people in an arcade, tournament or casuals can also have a big mental impact. How we are affected and deal with this is different for everybody.
Just something I thought worth considering, as playing with a lot of people around can be a big social scare for some people and ultimately will affect the way they play.
Out of all of the points mentioned, this would have to be my biggest challenge.
This is a big challenge but it is also one of the easiest to overcome because it is so easy to practice. For the older school I think it is easier. I grew up around arcade games long before I ever owned a Sega Master system. Up until Sega whenever I played a game it was in public. This was the default. Now with home gaming you get people who if they want to play competitively need to condition themselves to a public environment. Without regular options to do this it can be a challenge. About the only way I can think of that will have an effect is if you have access to Yifans use it.
Another big thing is confidence. When you are waiting for your game you should be waiting for your opportunity to destroy your opponent. Or at the very least prove to yourself and your opponent you are not afraid of fighting them. Players can smell fear a mile away and if they sense you are scared they will use that to their advantage and either rush you down because they know you are too scared to retaliate or try to mindfuck you with psychological tactics.
Fuck Lenny this article sucks. I talk all the time and im still a scrub.
Ya i really need to talk more. But I always have the problem where I don't want to say something wrong to the person. I will try better next time.
I think one of the problems is that people still think the way they've been learning the whole time is working.
It was evident in the last thread when i came on and stirred the hornets nest and everyone started telling me
all the usual stuff. I didn't see anyone say "hey.. i guess if the old way worked, this thread that Lenny started
wouldn't be here so maybe we should consider this isn't the best way for things to be".
I actually wrote that as a reply but then edited it straight after to say "over it"..
Cause i was over trying to convince people to see this a different way.
I know i'm a newb at street fighter, but there's one thing i take pride in; learning. There's a smarter way to
learn in general than the way the street fighter community seems to. But everyone seems too reluctant/lazy
to change or just doesn't want to hear it. Especially from a "new guy" like me.
I'm not sure what you're saying tbh Hook. These articles aren't about learning or styles of learning yet. The first article was about attitude, and the second article is about how to use the time you have with the game better.
Learning styles is a completely different debate altogether, and different people are going to learn in different ways.
What do you think it is that the SF community does so badly around learning anyway?
Well, i can't see how you can improve at something without learning. So to me, it's the same topic. I'm not talking about
learning "styles" either. But the last time i STARTED (i only just touched on the subject IMO) to get into this, i just offended
people so i've decided to go my own path on this, see if it works out. :P
And maybe if it works out for me and people notice, they might actually consider what i'm saying. And if not, no harm to
anyone else so it doesn't matter.
What do you suggest then hook?
Its not really that clear as to what you think is wrong with the we way teach (which we don't really we just offer advice) and pass on information. If you think the information is hard to get a hold of then your just wrong no offence. If you have trouble understanding it then yeah I agree it could be done better but its not easy to explain some things in street fighter over the internet.
What lenny is talking about isn't necessarily about learning. It is more about self awareness as a fighting game player. I guess this info should be easier to access for new players but tbh its only been in the last year that people have even bothered to go in depth about such topics. The information is so new that you cant even validate how useful some of it is.
There are few definite answers in fighting games and many points in the game where you have to fill in the gaps with your own knowledge. It is so important to learn how to play according to your own strengths.
I'm not saying you cant improve without learning. That's a give in. What I am saying is that getting better is more than just one or two things. Its about how to learn, and attitude, and using your time wisely, etc etc.
I don't think you offended people, and if someone is offended by a suggestion on a forum then they are pretty much a tard. But that's the whole point of a forum I guess. People say stuff, and you agree or not and say why, I wouldn't take it too personally.
Quote from: CaptainHook on December 01, 2010, 02:43:43 PM
so i've decided to go my own path on this, see if it works out. :P
That's the best choice. If you are blaming others for your lack of improvement it will lead nowhere.
Shot Lenny for the article. Another good read.
A big thing is that if you dont know something, like during ranbats for instance, just ask. Im pretty sure just about anyone, unless they have a carrot stuck up their hoho, will be more than happy to divulge their points of view and knowledge about the game and how they approach it to you.
Talk is good.
P.s. Lenny, I still think Guile's main goal vs Sim is to try and get in his face and backed into the corner. But that's just me. We need to have a proper set to prove this otherwise ;D
Apologies in advance for the novel. The only redeeming aspect of this post may indeed be that it sparks discussion. Which has to be good for us. I hope. :D
---
Quote from: [8-----D] Toots on December 01, 2010, 03:01:07 PM
Its not really that clear as to what you think is wrong with the we way teach (which we don't really we just offer advice) and pass on information.
Well if i was to start into this again, that would be the first thing i would address. :P As you said, no one actively teaches.
And maybe it's cause no one knows how to, or the community (world wide) is too young and lets be honest, is also dominated
by younger people. (the desire to teach probably naturally increases as you age..)
Quote from: [8-----D] Toots on December 01, 2010, 03:01:07 PMWhat lenny is talking about isn't necessarily about learning. It is more about self awareness as a fighting game player.
So what you're saying is, being self-aware as a fighting game player is something people need to... learn?. Hehehe. :D
Quote from: [8-----D] Toots on December 01, 2010, 03:01:07 PMI guess this info should be easier to access for new players but tbh its only been in the last year that people have even bothered to go in depth about such topics. The information is so new that you cant even validate how useful some of it is.
This in my opinion almost responds directly to what you said previously :
Quote from: [8-----D] Toots on December 01, 2010, 03:01:07 PM
If you think the information is hard to get a hold of then your just wrong no offence.
You're right, it isn't hard to get hold of, it's hard to validate the usefulness or even sift through the bad info to find good stuff.
Actually, this is largely the problem with the internet as a whole (and on a side issue a big part of the problem for the
entertainment community; especially music). "Over-saturated". "Signal->noise ratio". It's not hard to find music out there.
It fact, it's too easy. There's so much it has diluted the quality. What IS hard, is finding good ENGAGING music that
tries to do more than win you over in the first two secs before you close the window or go back to your twitter/facebook
page.
What's worse as a new player, is not knowing if the info presented is good or bad. Because you simply don't know any better.
And taking on bad info can really set you back on the path of development. Of course as you get better, you're ability to
sift through info on a topic and find good stuff increases exponentially. But it's about softening that learning curve.
Quote from: [8-----D] Toots on December 01, 2010, 03:01:07 PM
There are few definite answers in fighting games and many points in the game where you have to fill in the gaps with your own knowledge. It is so important to learn how to play according to your own strengths.
I agree. For example, right now i'm not interested in learning anything but fundamentals on the game. Whenever i've asked
for help on matchups, i think i've been pretty clear that i don't want "walk-through's" or "flowcharts", i want an idea of the
general approach. (maybe i've been unclear, wouldn't be the first time) Granted i could learn that by playing the matchup enough,
but if someone else already knows then... :D I don't think learning combo's in the training room is gonna make me a better player either.
It might win me some more games right now, but that's a short term gain IMHO. I could be very much wrong, but i think if daigo decided
to play with no combos, he'd still do really well because of his strong fundamentals.
Quote from: Ngati Kahungunu Champ on December 01, 2010, 03:09:21 PM
What I am saying is that getting better is more than just one or two things. Its about how to learn, and attitude, and using your time wisely, etc etc.
This will be typical forum behaviour on my part, because i don't disagree with what your saying in essence. BUT (hehe), your attitude and using
your time wisely etc are relevant in the context of a goal. The goal of which is to ultimately learn. (for me). Becoming better is a byproduct of learning.
Your attitude and thinking and time-management are all tools used to aid in learning (for this context). I see learning as the top of the pyramid we're trying
to climb. At least it's the top of mine. So all my comments/actions revolve around that. Someone else may have "fun" at the top of theirs
so obviously the foundation of their pyramid will be different. (i don't know how the analogy of pyramids came in but i went with it.. :P )
So i guess what i'm saying is, if getter better is your goal then all roads lead to learning. You can't adjust your attitude (for example) without
first learning that perhaps it's not productive, and then learning what a better attitude is, and then learning to put that new attitude into
practice. So if you shift the goal towards learning, (IMHO) the rest (getting better) becomes a lot easier/natural. I have an insatiable thirst for learning. (anything)
I dont even have to focus on getting better because it happens naturally when trying to learn. (and yes, i have some theories about more
effective learning in general but i'm guessing most people stopped reading this post in the first paragraph or when they read my username
at the top of it. :D )
It might also be that when i talk of learning, i have in my head a different idea of what that means than the way people are interpreting it.
Hopefully now its clear that i consider attitude shifts, using your time wisely, social interaction, mental toughness/dexterity, etc etc all
things to be learnt. I'm not really talking about "i need to learn to option select/FADC/tech throws/blah/blah" although obviously the details
of this game are included in things to be learnt to be good at SF. But i consider that "specific info" to be in one of the top layers of the pyramid.
i.e one of the smaller concerns and things that can be learnt later or with time..
In closing your honour, i agree with your articles and your desire to shift mindsets at a more fundamental level.
But consider that if the only way to change people is through education, perhaps the focus of learning is the more holistic approach
to getting better than it may appear to you (all). And i personally think a holistic approach to learning benefits all of us.
As a complete aside, do you paste your posts in from notepad or something, Hook? They all have fucked up spacing and are hard to read :/
Sorry, my formatting is an old habit with origins that i wont bother go into now. :(
I imagine if your browser window is not the same width as mine that yes, they would be
annoying to read. :(
I agree with a lot of what Hook has to say but I'm to lazy to try and type out all the shit I have in my head. Will discuss this in more depth at the next meetup.
Hook the offer still stands for you to come around to my place to play, learn and pick my brain. I'm an old bastard that used to teach intellectually handicapped people how to use computers, I'm sure I can teach an able minded person some Street Fighter :P
We'll talk about this at christmas damager as there are too many things to go over and its not really on the topic of the article.
Thanks Graeme, don't worry i WILL be taking you up on your offer (and Kurts and a few others). I finish work
for good in 3 weeks and i will be super happy guy. :D
Just to be clear tho, i'm not complaining that people aren't teaching me enough or anything. I'm saying i see
some problems here and i think we could make things better for everyone (that's interested anyway..).
Sorry if this was hijacking your thread Lenny, but i do think it's very relevant to what you're talking about so
i see it as natural discussion.
Ben ~ i'm always keen to pick your brain on this shit. And if my posts do nothing but get us talking about this at
meetups then that's a win in my book. :D
Nice read Lenny, regarding the 'play less' part and quality over quantity, a few months back Rumble and I would agree before we started playing each other that we would be playing to improve. By playing to improve it could be as little as implementing a new combo to progressing to trying new setups or mixups to even a whole change of playstyle, e.g. more/ less aggressive. At the end of each session we would play one serious set and over time I could see that the stuff that worked while playing to improve would eventually become part of our standard repertoire.
soo much to read, I skim thru many, kinda got teh idea of thsi post@@....
@Lenny, Nice post yet again.
Random stuff for hook and the new perople.
@None of us are teachers nor in the position to teach tbh, as a community we help where we can when players ask because there are just TOO much to cover when u start to learn the game. Everything we have learnt are from experience, well at least for me anyways. We just dont have the people to write/ compile all the stuff together, I see what you mean by productive learning, you seem to the type to have everything planned out right and ready to use. But at this stage we are not, and it won't be for a while. I am not saying your approach is incorrect, but your expectation to the "learning" is different than many, but so am I. So I went away and did it my way and went along with how the others do it as this HOW it is for now. I always believe in how much effort you put in is how much you get in return, no shortcuts, as there is no easy way of learning as we all have difference mind sets on how you're suppose to learn, ther eain't no right nor wrong.
IT'S WHAT IS RIGHT TO YOU.
Yeah, i know that's how it is now. But we can change it. :P
Cliffs:
Quality, not quantity.
<fin>
Hey yall not sure if this is really the right forum to discuss this but I just had a Street Fighter epiphany. While playing a player online I noticed one thing while he was beating me. He was playing on a much faster level than I was. So no matter who I picked or who he picked he would have an advantage.
My theory is that this speed of play is the single biggest factor between levels of play. And levelling up your play. I believe this is why Japanese players (or others) who concentrate on spacing have the upper hand. Because they move faster to get into that position and react once they are there.
There are two aspects to this. Body and mind. (Obviously) I think both need to be conditioned in order to be a master. And because both affect the other, if one is neglected in practicing you will not be able to level up as you desire.
So now the question comes just How to speed up your game? I haven't figured this out yet but I'll keep thinking on this issue. I really think this is the sole reason why the top players in NZ and also world tournaments always end up there because they have conditioned themselves to process the game at such a fast speed. If anyone has any thoughts on this aspect especially on anyone's methods to improve on it I would be interested to hear.
Thanks.
Speed training. I don't know of a way to speed up SSF4, but i played some people at ST on speed 3 (on ggpo it's faster than normal)
for a while and when i played some people after (that usually waste me) i could hold my own a LOT more. "Normal" speed felt like
slow motion because i was used to reacting to things quicker. Timing for combos etc was off but i play guile right now so it wasn't
such a factor. It went away over the week as i only played speed 2 after that but the same thoughts you had crossed my mind.
They does this in some sports also. (Literally practice the activity at a much quicker pace than normal..)
I don't know if the benefits would be good long term though and there would be concern for combo timing as i said. But it's something to
consider at least.
David Sirlin, Playing to Win - Prescence of Mind
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/9-presence-of-mind.html
Bro, it's the crack. Just anyone who plays Bison and they'll tell you.
jeff schaffer on how to be a better player .
looks like hes doing a new set of vids yay :)
Hey does anyone here do any physical exercise to improve their Street Fighter game? Or alternatively does anyone find that physical exercise makes a markable difference to their game?
Thanks.
Yeah. Practicing combos so they enter muscle memory :)
But would other increased aerobic exercise make a great difference in gameplay?
Quote from: [PF]CrazyMobius on December 07, 2010, 07:55:04 AM
But would other increased aerobic exercise make a great difference in gameplay?
This might sound stupid, but I think it does.
I tend to play a lot more focused after coming home from a run with the dog or cricket training - there have been scientific studies which show that your brain is more active during and after exercise than it is when you're just sitting down on the couch - unfortunately I can't remember a source :(
Try go for a quick jog around the block before sitting down to play - you'd be surprised at how much stronger your concentration is. Oh, and obviously, too much exercise will just make you fatigued :P!
It's pretty well known exercise can help to improve your performance at work and school and can be used to control depression and behaviour disorders by increasing oxygen flow and raising dopamine levels. I don't see why this wouldn't work for Street Fighter. The cool thing is that this would probably work on both a regular and single use basis. More frequent exercise has its obvious benefits. Eru is also right in what he said and to add to that it'll probably work to calm most peoples' nerves/get them out of some of those bad mindsets you can get into whilst losing.
Good points Eru and Smoof. That's what I was getting at. Also a lot of our top players seem to do some sort of sports (as far as I know.)
I think I might try this and see how it goes.