rofl, are these supposed to be sad movies
LP -> (enemy normal throw)
LP -> LP -> tatsu -> c. -> c. -> c. .... or f.MP ...
LP -> LP -> MISS! -> c.LK (HITS!) -> green hands
might sounds bitter from the 13th =)
seeing how I use a 1 week old new char in a fucking tourny obviously i was in for the participation and fun,
and indeed it was.
but its a pity that our tournys(same goes for the 2v2, especially the corner setup)
are overshadowed by lags, and its really bad this time, even slightly harder combos are missing,
nearly impossible to do just frame ones (yes my ibuki's ones =( )
i seriously think that the "casual" setup that day was superior hehe.
GG
To be honest, i dont think lag was the problem. I think the fact that there WASN'T any lag was the issue. Most of us are used to playing with some sort of delay (like on the casual setup. There IS lag on that setup. Noticable lag) so we were dropping combos on the lagless setup. (Like me and my RSF's)
This sounds stupid, but i genuinely find this to be the case when im using a VGA cable for example. And i KNOW that results in less lag.
The 2v2 was laggy as hell though. At least throws were techable at APAC.
Quote from: ILL_BILL on May 19, 2010, 10:18:35 AM
To be honest, i dont think lag was the problem. I think the fact that there WASN'T any lag was the issue. Most of us are used to playing with some sort of delay (like on the casual setup. There IS lag on that setup. Noticable lag) so we were dropping combos on the lagless setup. (Like me and my RSF's)
This sounds stupid, but i genuinely find this to be the case when im using a VGA cable for example. And i KNOW that results in less lag.
The 2v2 was laggy as hell though. At least throws were techable at APAC.
+1. Every time I've played on a set up that ISN'T my own, I drop every combo. I do tech more throws though, so that's indicative of either:
a) Increased concentration (hardly fucking likely with my brain)
b) Decreased input latency
Someone should convince my girlfriend that I need a new monitor, and then BUY me that monitor.
proly right lol,
Quote from: ILL_BILL on May 19, 2010, 10:18:35 AM
To be honest, i dont think lag was the problem. I think the fact that there WASN'T any lag was the issue. Most of us are used to playing with some sort of delay (like on the casual setup. There IS lag on that setup. Noticable lag) so we were dropping combos on the lagless setup. (Like me and my RSF's)
This sounds stupid, but i genuinely find this to be the case when im using a VGA cable for example. And i KNOW that results in less lag.
The 2v2 was laggy as hell though. At least throws were techable at APAC.
not complaining, just facts. I really didn't have any issues with the setups on the day.
First TV had lag, nowhere near as bad as the casual setups run on HDMI, but it did have some.
Second TV had minimal lag, but a fucked up ratio which could fuck with your spacing or w/e.
Also, unless your links are visually confirmed, lag shouldn't be an issue for combos.
A lot of mine are. While RSF is essentially rhythm, i do use visual cues to cancel the fierce into the run in order to actually get more than 2 hits in a lot of cases, given that half of RSF is distance anyway. But thats beside the point.
In theory, lag shouldn't be affecting your combos, but the fact of the matter is, unless you do your links with you eyes closed, lag fucks with your perception enough to make you miss things. Likewise, if youre used to watching shit lag, youre going to have trouble when the delay isn't there.
Some people might not notice it, others will. Particularly people that play on a slightly laggier setup most of the time.
Were gonna test the monitors on friday, find out how laggy they are and that will pretty much settle it.
Sorry Bill but i have to disagree with you on this one. I noticed delay when I played Juri that day. When I used Ultra 1, I've never missed the overhead into combo (Yes, I'm always good at combo execution ^_^) But that day I missed A LOT due to delay. And I mean DELAY coz when I did overhead, my lk DIDN'T come out. Which means I input the command faster than it supposed to be.
I didn't believe it at first, so I tried it again (I was still in tournament matches) and this time I delayed it by 1-2 frames and it still didn't come out. Assume the setup had NO delay, my l.k would come out and the enemy would block it since I put delay on it. So after a few tries, I've figured out the machine had delay issue, I just couldn't be bother to tell anyone about that. But I guess many people who used 1-2 frame combo will notice it.
Now, same case for Cody's Ibuki, he did lk -> lp -> nothing which means he input the command a bit too fast instead of too slow. (too slow = lk -> lp -> block mid kick). It's a 1 frame link combo, same for Juri overhead -> l.k. And I remembered Kevin mentioned the same thing. After he played his first match at the tournament machine, he told me that: "I haven't played for a long time, I missed too many combos". Then when he had a few games at the casual set up, he said : "I like this machine more" !?!! and he could do combo on that one. He came back to the tournament machine, he missed again!?!! I guess it's not only me, Cody, Jack, Fong, Andy problem.
But to be honest, I don't think the delay effected the outcome that much. And every time when we play in a tournament, everyone complains about delay. I barely notice ANY DELAY when I use C.viper coz she has no 1-2 frame link combo and same for MANY other characters. To be honest, there shouldn't be any different If we don't go for COMBO type characters OR using 1-2 frame link combo. MOST of the combo we use in tournament are basics and we can always link them with reaction (2-4 frames at least). Kevin is the proof that delay doesn't matter much.
I noticed delay on all your mothers.
Also, I think you have it backwards, Hue.
For animation based combos:
Do a normal
'see' the normal recover
do the next normal
If there is input delay on the monitor, you will SEE the normal recover AFTER it has already recovered. Then you input your button at the correct time for the link, but the animation is further along than it actually should be, due to your input delay compensation.
Switch to a lagless monitor, and the move will get to the animation cue you're used to. You're pressing your button. Because the lagless monitor actually reflects reality, you've pressed the button too early. In other words, you've trained yourself to press the button too early because you're used to seeing the animation a few frames after it should be.
It might be useful to exaggerate the input delay problem for effect.
You press a button
10 seconds later the move starts animating
x frames after that the move finishes
You see the move finish, press the next button
It's 10 seconds too late for the link! The dude will block it!
To compensate and hit the link, you've got to press the second button BEFORE the animation even starts!
Now switch to a lagless setup
You press a button
instantly the move starts animating
You've already missed the animation-based timing you need to combo for the laggy setup, but if you were to go through with it, you'd be pressing the next button way too early.
In summary, if the setup has MORE input delay than you are used to, you should get more blocked links rather than links that don't come out. You guys are used to compensating for the input delay already, and switching to a monitor without it is messing you up.
And if the next argument is "but we're all used to the arcade timing and arcade is THE TRUTH!", I don't give a damn. Perhaps Yifan's setups have input lag!
we can argue all day and not come to anything. Its personal preference, some use to delay some don't simple.
Hahah, no.
There's nothing to argue about when it comes to input lag. It is bad. It should not be there.
The fact that you guys bitch and moan on laggy monitors and then bitch and moan on lagless monitors is frankly hilarious, and also really annoying from an operational standpoint.
Just because you are used to something, doesn't mean it's preferred.
Stick vs. Pad = preference
Lag vs. No Lag = you're either used to it or not
Lag = bad. That's all there is to it - just because I can beat anyone here on my ghetto as slanty pool table at home, doesn't mean I'm the best pool player here... it just means I've played on that ghetto ass pool table enough that I know how to play ONLY on that pool table.
What the players want is preferred setup, eg for EVO.
You maybe playing on a lagless setup but what if it comes to EVO? you will fail yes. (example)
So the point I am trying to put forward is a STANDARD for our Tournaments.
Its annoying but it is something we need to address and standardize before any major events.
Ummm, just wait till the test are done. Until then BAU.
Ok then I hereby announce that the STANDARD for all tournaments is a lagless setup. Due to some constraints, some tournaments might not live up to this standard, and that is regrettable.
Happy now?
Yes, very :D
EVO is meant to be played on a lagless setup. Players there will bitch alot more than we do. Optimal setup for the biggest competition is not to have lag (I'll keep quiet about WCG lol).
Im not bitching about lagless stuff. Im just saying that is probably the reason behind the trouble that people are having.
A lagless setup should be standard. I might drop a few combos because im not used to having 0 input lag, but whatever. Id rather have to learn to play without lag than be in a situation where i can't tech throws on reaction.
Yifans is not a particularly good setup tbh. It in no way reflects what a quality arcade setup for SF4 should be like, so i personally think comparing stuff to yifans is pretty pointless.
Quote from: fluxcore on May 19, 2010, 01:44:23 PM
Ok then I hereby announce that the STANDARD for all tournaments is a lagless setup. Due to some constraints, some tournaments might not live up to this standard, and that is regrettable.
Happy now?
oh wait we should jsut all follow the leader because a lagless setup will help us in big tournaments and if we do bad in them we should complain their setup is lag.
seriously, get realistic as that won't happen. We want to mirrior or close enought to their setup in EVO for example so when it comes to that we are not at a disadvantage, we are already disadvantage in many ways and don't need anymore.
EVO will be aiming to have the smallest amount of lag possible. We should be doing the same. This is why we are testing the setups at Giga on Friday.
Andy, not to sure if you read what you type before you post as it was contradicting your arguement in that last post.
Basically:
Evo says have no lag setups
Alan says have no lag setup
Andy says whatever Alan
Andy says keep it like evo standards (ie no lag setups as what Alan jusst said)
Andy goes @_@
Everybody else reading goes @_@
World blows up.
$20 says Birry Wong survives the world blowing up.
Next tournament xbox pads only. No complaining about the equipment cause that's just an excuse. And the SSF4 players should have to have tiebreakers on Mortal Kombat so they can't complain that their opponent was better/worse than them at SSF4.
fuck that we should just move all the tournaments to ultimate mortal kombat 3
rofl, the only thing i actually care is when these things being uploaded to youtube,
which make us all look like noobs. fuck HD, CRT ftw.
GG, I will survive!
Quote from: ILL_BILL on May 19, 2010, 03:39:13 PM
$20 says Birry Wong survives the world blowing up.
BIRRY WONG
Quote from: cha on May 19, 2010, 04:58:26 PM
rofl, the only thing i actually care is when these things being uploaded to youtube,
which make us all look like noobs. fuck HD, CRT ftw.
GG, I will survive!
Quote from: stereomonkey on May 19, 2010, 03:34:34 PM
Andy, not to sure if you read what you type before you post as it was contradicting your arguement in that last post.
Basically:
Evo says have no lag setups
Alan says have no lag setup
Andy says whatever Alan
Andy says keep it like evo standards (ie no lag setups as what Alan jusst said)
Andy goes @_@
Everybody else reading goes @_@
World blows up.
What I am proposing is that we had setups similar to EVO with or without lag. Whereas Alan said lag free is the way to go which is fine IF EVO is totally lag free. But from What I understand, EVO uses PS3 with the VH236H monitors if I am correct? so you tell me this is lag free?
I am using a similar monitor at home vw246h monitor and yes its great monitor and believe it to be very similar to its predecessor, I don't have any problems with this monitor.
So in a nut shell, there is lag with the EVO setup if the setup we had for the qualifier is so call lag free?
Just to get things clear, this is not about me, but about the overall complaints that both myself and Lenny have face during the last few tournaments. Its hard to justify which is better, lag free? little lag but EVO type setup or just shit lag setup (whatever that is).
therefore I suggested that we mimic EVO's setup or as close as possible if thats fair? I know we don't have the resources but we will do with what we got.
It's not hard to justify at all. There is no reason to mimic Evo's slightly laggy setup. No reason.
Honestly Andy that has to be the worst idea I've ever heard. We're running a tournament and we purposely want to have lag cause it's better than having no lag. Let's play pool with a table with slight roll on it just incase we ever walk into a shitty bar.
Lag is bad not good, next time I go to a tournament I'm gonna say "sorry this setup doesn't lag enough for me, I refuse to play."
I'm refering to standards, not preferrence.
If we can why play on lag, but wait a minute the biggest SF tournament plays in a laggy setup???
Tell me I am wrong.
They play on a suboptimal monitor because they messed up and bought a whole shitload of them, and can't justify/afford to replace them all.
There is no reason to emulate that foolish behaviour.
This is ridiculous.
No lag = good
Lag = bad.
There is NO reason to go for the second one if we can avoid it.
my soul lags when i read this topic.
1. I don't know any game ever that has made the standard tournament play require lag.
2. And so you want to emulate lag... And then it's even worse: Is there enough lag? Is there too much? (those questions sound ridiculous.)
Quote from: massi4h on May 20, 2010, 11:52:16 AM
1. I don't know any game ever that has made the standard tournament play require lag.
2. And so you want to emulate lag... And then it's even worse: Is there enough lag? Is there too much? (those questions sound ridiculous.)
Not only do they sound ridiculous, they ARE fucking ridiculous.
Quote from: ILL_BILL on May 19, 2010, 10:18:35 AM
To be honest, i dont think lag was the problem. I think the fact that there WASN'T any lag was the issue.
Actually that is what I believed before Hue explained to me otherwise that night, the test would tell anyways so it doesn't matter now.
Theoretically there is always link delay, processing delay etc, electrons dont just wrap from the console to the TV.
My point is what Andy said isn't too ridiculous IMO, its not that black and white.
Of course everyone prefers no lag setup. But is it really good if 95% of the SSFIV players are used to slight delay? (probably wt's happening this time if the one used was actually "lagless") What about when all the tournaments in the world and every home are using slightly delayed setup? Maybe what's more important is to find a common setup instead of a so called "correct" but probably meaningless setup?
I don't have answers, that's why I never commented on the lag issue before the videos were posted. As I said I just felt pretty sorry for the videos lol. Btw, I notice even the japanese godsgardens tournament probably had this problem too =D
Even if everyone is used to a little bit of lag, they are not all used to the same amount of lag.
I can tell you right now that the OZhadou EVO APAC tournament will be using 360s with BenQ monitors, specifically to minimise input delay. I would estimate this setup would have 0 frames input delay, with the odd frame being 1 frame out.
In fact from what I understand all the OzHadou events use these setups.
So no, it's certainly not 'meaningless' or in isolation from the entire rest of the world. I would imagine any PROPER arcade setup would have no input delay (and no I do not count Yifan's as a proper setup).
I get the feeling if certain players played with their monitors turned on their sides I'd start getting requests that tournaments be ran like that.
NZism will always strive for the BEST setups possible (read: lowest latency). If we can achieve this at the nationals, we will.
If Andy or someone else wants to run some non-NZism bullshit tournament pandering to whatever whims you guys have, he can. You guys can play underwater, upside down, with 100frame lag monitors if you want.
End of discussion.