"Laugh Less, Think More"
I recently read an article (http://thesalesblog.com/2010/02/5-ways-to-be-more-competitive-in-sales/) that made reference to a Japanese phrase “Makatsu Agatsu.†It means “True victory is victory over oneselfâ€. It's an interesting article on sales, and somehow although completely unrelated, made me think a lot about our scene. I realized that our scene is continually dominated by the same people over and over again, and that although the game was released a fair amount of time ago, and despite having had regular get togethers, most of our players are still at the same level they were months ago. Don’t get me wrong, sure some of us do better combos, and some of us have a new gimmick here and there, but fundamentally our scene is stagnant and our individual approach to the game requires a paradigm shift before we as a whole can become more competitive.
So I thought some more about this, and have decided that I will write a few articles and post one each week on NZism. Obviously there are hundreds of articles floating around on the net by people that are a lot better at Street Fighter than I am, but my point of difference is that I will be challenging our community directly to think about and to understand what holds us back, and how we can overcome this.
These articles won't have a roadmap to becoming the best. In fact they contain no tips at all. They are about challenging your personal thinking about our community and the game. In fact, if you read these articles and reply with "oh yeah I learned this OS and it made me heaps better" you will have missed the point entirely. The challenge isn't being thrown down to your execution, your zoning, or your reactions. The challenge here is being thrown down to your attitude and your thinking.
So in saying that, how many of you guys come to ranbats/gatherings and lose, have a chuckle about it, go get something to eat, then turn up 2 weeks later and repeat the process? This in my opinion is one of the big things that holds us back. In our scene there is a clear separation between who is good and who is not, and over the course of however long we have been playing these games, most people have remained at the same skill level. The best continue to place highly, the worst continue to place poorly, and the average players remain squarely in the middle. The problem is that we are happy with this. We aren’t hungry to get better, and most of us will go back, jump on xbox live, and continue to mash away the same way we did months ago without improving our fundamentals.
This attitude is the first thing that needs to change. If we as individuals are content to not improve, the direct result is that the community as a whole also fails to improve. No single person alone can become the next Daigo, it will take every single one of us striving for the best to raise our level, and not make us look like the bunch of scrubs we really are. How can we expect to go to OzHadou Nationals and be taken seriously if we aren’t even prepared to take ourselves seriously? Continuing to mash at every ranbats seems pretty hilarious at the time when we all call you a scrub, but the laughter will fade when our best players are at OHN next year trying their hardest, only to be beaten because the rest of our community is happy to stay mediocre and not push them further.
At the end of the day, sure it’s just a game. But the very nature of the game is to be competitive, to have the most life when the clock reaches zero, or to wipe out the last of your opponents lifebar. If your goal isn’t to do that to every opponent you face in a serious game, then what are you here for?
So in short, be more salty. Get angry even! When you’ve been knocked out of the ranbats 3 weeks in a row by the same guy, go home and sulk. Think about what you did, and vow to return to take the throne from him! When someone tells you to stop playing like a scrub don’t just laugh it off. When Auckland tells your city that you’re all free, and that you don’t have a hope of beating any of us, then take it to god damn heart and do something about it!
"Cheers Fluxcore for editing my terrible grammar and the guys on IRC for your input"
I'm pretty guilty of almost everything noted in the post above. I guess mainly because I'm not fussed about losing because I don't play the game enough to be competitive, so I just play for fun. Otherwise I'd probably have quit playing ages ago :p With uni almost finished this should change and hopefully I can start looking to be more competitive.
Regarding the scene/players becoming stagnant, I think it's a half-truth. There are definitely some people leveling up seriously (karizzma and rumble come to mind), though it's hard to gauge their skill when kevin/simon/andy/hue who are some of the top players don't come to ranbats.
The other thing I think holds everyone back is online play, no one can take it seriously with the lag and XBL/PSN scrubs, mashed DP's and ultras. It's hard to improve fundamentals when playing online encourages poor play to win.
Based on my fairly short time around here, I think the best levelling up was when there was going to be a bar fights event, with west vs south vs central auckland + other parts of NZ. Heaps of offline training sessions. The bar fights meant you had to earn a spot to get on a team, you couldn't buy your way into the comp. It also meant all the top players couldn't make top teams, they were split up, so their whole team had to level up together to stand a chance.
Who's training hard for Christmas Damager?
Suprised this topic has 90+ views, 0 comments :p
Quote from: Rorooze on November 11, 2010, 02:19:31 AM
Suprised this topic has 90+ views, 0 comments :p
I was gonna post "Yeah, good shit Lenny, keep it up" but i decided i would rather keep this thread clean.. oops.
@Lenny,
Great article, good read, its what I've had in mind since I first joined back in later 2008. Youhit it spot on, Attitude towards teh game.
Good shit, ~~~!!!
@Rorooze
Lets put it this way, I don't know about the others, but me, Kevin, Simon and Hue and Cody have all been busy with Work and Uni as its getting near teh end of the year, things are getting pushed to finish on time, projects and exams etc etc. How much practice you say we do? ZEROLOL. Apart from all that, we also have family and partners to worry about, I am sure you guys are the same but personally I don't really have the time to put any practice in, thats why I go to Yifans at lunch time when I can and try to atleast make sure I remember how to play HAHAHA. :)
@Mobious,
I don't know why you say Tournaments kills the fun? its the best way to see where you are at compared to everyone, and give you some motivation to improve. But of course that is if you're taking it seriously, if its casuals for fun then entering a tournament is for the laugh and having fun with the community? I don't see why it KILLS the fun...? I guess it might just be a personal thing?
Hard i was gonna comment before but i got high.
That is bang on, nail on the head sorta shit there bra. I've always thought that, wondered why people don't wana beast at a game they love, and regularly play. I know people that were on the same level as me when i first started and then drifted off as i got better.
Me, Fong, Jack and Skullator. I think wer'e the most improved from last year. I don't know about them but i had that exact attitude that lenny's talking about.
Other people i wish had that attitude are most of the peeps on PSN who don't really get better.
But tbh Len. I think those people don't care. So they never gonna have that attitude. they like where they are at. Better than average. I would like some more input from them.
Quote from: [NYC] weazzyefff on November 11, 2010, 10:19:38 AM
That is bang on, nail on the head sorta shit there bra. I've always thought that, wondered why people don't wana beast at a game they love, and regularly play. I know people that were on the same level as me when i first started and then drifted off as i got better.
That would be me haha. The simple fact is time or lack of. My competitive peak for Street Fighter was CvS2 but I was about 24 and had no girlfriend at the time, was studying (across the road from Yifans) so I had a lot of spare time and I had a flatmate that played as well so we played for about 3 hours a night!
Fast forward to 2010, I'm 35 I have a fiance soon to be wife and a wedding to organise, a full time job, bills to pay and design work I do at home amongst other things. I now probably play less in a week now than I used to in one day and most of that is pretty crappy online which I think actually makes me worse. I just don't have the time to invest anymore.
Andy can talk about how they don't practice anymore but I guarentee the 1/2 hr lunchbreak offline at Yifans against actual people is way more practice than I get in a week at the moment.
Should I stop playing Street Fighter, am I dragging down those that want to get better by going along to play for fun? I still love fighting games and it's still fun to play. I'm just never going to be at that competitive level again like I was 10 years ago.
I think the focus of this particular community is for everyone to get better and play competitively WHILE having fun.
But it was obvious to me on my first visit that people take it seriously, which is why i joined up here. :)
Quote from: CaptainHook on November 11, 2010, 11:35:37 AM
I think the focus of this particular community is for everyone to get better and play competitively WHILE having fun.
But it was obvious to me on my first visit that people take it seriously, which is why i joined up here. :)
Yer maybe we take it too serious sometimes.
More fun when you no more too imo. Or you might as well go a completely random char and buttonmash.
edit: I still come to ranbats and shit drunk lol. I only ben to 2 events not. The last 3v3 and the Nats. Hows that for playing for fun lol.
I totally agree with Graeme, you can chose to play at whatever level that suits you, my opinion with attitdue is that even tho I am busy with this and that, I still have it in mind everytime I play. I might be improving slower, but its better than not...
As for Mobious, I was meaning towards you, not everyone. But as stated I said at teh very end, it might just because how you think and take it (attitude towards this whole thing) but that doesn't mean you're wrong, its jsut we all have our own perspective for this.
But for those who are wanting to imrpove, attidue is a key factor.
Already, I think this has gone off topic. This thread isn't about how much time you put in the game, whether you're having fun or whether you're playing Street Fighter properly, it's about the general mindset the community approaches this game as a whole. Do you go 2 and 0 at ranbats and just go "LOL I DON'T EVEN PLAY THIS GAME ANYMORE"? Do you lose to someone and go "Man the only reason why I lost is cause he is a scrub". Most people here so far are just reinforcing what this article is stating our community lacks: A competitive mindset. The fact that most of you guys are using time or fun as an excuse just shows how much this mindset really needs to change.
How many of you walk away after your matches at ranbats, nats or whatever and just put your loss down to "Oh this guy is just better than me" or "This cunt plays heaps more than me"? You don't need to have 20 hours a week of time to put into Street Fighter to even realise something really general like "Oh man the way I apply pressure on their wakeup is really weak" or "I love going for the overhead way too much". Even you guys who don't play much, even if you got smashed, get salty, get angry. If someone tells you you were handling that matchup the wrong way, take that nigga to our best of 3 salty suite setup and prove you can smash him or at least try to take the matchup differently.
I think at the same time this puts a lot of responsibility on our better players to be more open with their opinions. If you can see an obvious aspect where someone is lacking, point that shit out. A lot of us tend to go on autopilot for some matches and bad habits and shit can really become apparent. The community has put a lot of these tools in place and we're really lucky imo. I think a lot of us just need to start taking better advantage of them.
Quote from: Oleetworth on November 11, 2010, 12:49:55 PM
This thread isn't about how much time you put in the game, whether you're having fun or whether you're playing Street Fighter properly, it's about the general mindset the community approaches this game as a whole.
I agree with what you're saying in your post in general, but the general mindset to the game actually does reflect if people
are just trying to have fun, or if they don't have the time they would like to put in.
You just gotta accept that some people won't fit into what you may want the community to be.
Also, it would be interesting to get a vote on how many people actually WANT the community proposed here, versus people
who just like the actual "community" aspect of it in itself.
I'm here to get as good as i can personally, but i can totally understand others who don't have that goal. And if it isn't,
is there anything wrong with them going to ranbats and going "LOL"? Should they be excluded because they're not
competitive in mindset how you'd like?
I'm a general believer in the "lead by example" ethos. So i think it will start there.
I personally would like training sessions every week/fortnight and maybe a ranbats once a month so there's actually an active
attempt of improvement for people being there. Rather than just trying to win their match. Everyone will have their own
opinion on how to best press forward, but i think whatever it is should just be DONE, rather than talked about forever.
Fair enough Smoof, I was really just responding to weazzy.
OK lately I have been wanting to improve again, fighting games have kind of been on the backburner for me recently. SCR actually got me quite psyched, more than I have been in a while.
I'm gonna throw something in the mix here for Auckland and see what kind of result I get:
Some (I think a few of us) in Auckland are a bit older and have some more responisbilities (including kids for some of us, not me) so I think it's just a matter of juggling things. It kills me when I see people going "I'm about to go down to Yifans who's gonna meet me" because I would love to but just can't drop things or rearrange them that quickly.
Fortnightly Ranbats just isn't enough. I go there I get a few games, maybe a few casuals, I learn a few things but then the next Ranbats is two weeks away and anything I learnt isn't being put into practice enough and it's gone by the next Ranbats. I think "consistent" and "good" practice is important. By good I mean offline, in a situation to discuss stuff and not against scrubs haha.
Can we Aucklanders get something like CHCHs mashups going once a week for a few solid hours? It's the consistency of a timeslot that matters for me and I'm sure a few others. Could we do every Weds at Giga from 6-9pm (just an example) or something? Something like that I can make I just can't make things on short notice. It would help people like me immensely. We could start a thread in the Auckland section and keep it updated. That way if none of us could make it we could all post a few days early and cancel it so nobody shows up on a day nobodys there.
Anyway just chucking it out there. I'm prepared to commit the time and I want to get better, my fundamentals are OK I mean c'mon I've been playing SF in various forms since II but I need matchup practice. I just need help/time from people doing it.
Quote from: geneterror on November 11, 2010, 01:43:44 PM
Can we Aucklanders get something like CHCHs mashups going once a week for a few solid hours?
That's basically what i said in the post above yours, so i'm keen. :)
I'd even like for it to be called "training sessions" so there's actually a focus on learning, rather than winning games.
Quote from: CaptainHook on November 11, 2010, 02:02:17 PM
That's basically what i said in the post above yours, so i'm keen. :)
I'd even like for it to be called "training sessions" so there's actually a focus on learning, rather than winning games.
Yeah I saw your post right after I posted, I must having been typing it all up while you were posting. Great minds think alike :-* :D
Keen for weekly meetups. That post wasn't really directed at you Graeme lol. I was just trying to point out that the point of this article wasn't so much about everyones' skill levels rather than the desire to get better and learn shit. Which is obviously lacking in our community
Maybe the desire isn't so much lacking, as leadership? Lets face it, people are basically sheep, but i don't think from what i can
tell anyone has led the herd into this mindset yet. Which i guess is Lenny's intention with this thread..?
I'll say it again, lead by example. Someone. Hehehehe.
Yer i think you's are all right in a way.
I don't think it takes long to level up if you see what your doing wrong and change it. Or work on it or w/e. I know it's boring but, it takes way longer than just playing over and over and failling your shit hardout. I tried to do that when learning fadc. Didn't wanna go training mode and learn it. Thought i'd just slowly get there playing people. Didn't work.
Anyway I'm keen for meetups.
I just want to say, and no homo, but weazzy is an amazing example of a dude who was pretty average, worked real hard, and it showed by his great placing at Nats this year. He is not the only example, but he's a good one. There are other people as well who have already proven that you don't have to be bottom of the barrel, and free money for the better players, if you don't want to be.
Andy also made a really good point when responding to Graeme, it isn't necessarily about how much time you put in, just what you do with that time. Think about why you're doing things rather than just doing them, then if they don't work you might understand why. Small things like that can be done in a small time period of playing or practicing to make a big difference to how you're using your time.
Im going to try avoiding commenting on this. Personally i see the merits of both sides, and I honestly cant see myself siding with either without contradicting my feelings on the matter to some extent. Honestly, its really difficult to say anything that I myself can't argue against.
Quote from: Oleetworth on November 11, 2010, 02:13:03 PM
Keen for weekly meetups. That post wasn't really directed at you Graeme lol.
All good I didn't think it was, I just thought there are probably just a few people in my position is all. Let's start organising something regular. LEVEL UP!
Quote from: [NIUE] BIRRY WONG on November 11, 2010, 03:10:42 PM
Im going to try avoiding commenting on this. Personally i see the merits of both sides, and I honestly cant see myself siding with either without contradicting my feelings on the matter to some extent. Honestly, its really difficult to say anything that I myself can't argue against.
I think we can achieve both sides though. I like the idea of monthly Ranbats and weekly meetups. We can all get togther hang out, talk shit and work on our game. I know even at Ranbats during casuals sometimes you don't feel like you can pause midgame and say either "Hey you keep hitting me with that what am I doing wrong" or "I keep hitting you with move X you do need to do more of this". Which is what I think we need more of, then when it gets competitive hopefully some of us will have improved and we can put our game face on and those that are not so serious can do their thing as well.
One thing I really liked was an idea I saw on a video for SoCals (I think?) Wednesday night fights where they have 4 pools A, B, C, D with A being the high level pool but if you get knocked out of Pool A the next week you have to fight your way through Pool B, C or D while the winners of Pools B, C, D move up to pool A to take the place of those who lost while in Pool A the week before.
This keeps us scrubs away from Fong and Jack on our first game of the night while giving us a goal to work toward, spending a week in Pool A haha.
Of course this is a potential nightmare for scoring but is something to look at for the next Ranbat season?
Yea for sure. I just dont want to say something like. "YOU GUYZ NEED TO B MOAR SRS" when at the same time im also thinking "ITZ JUST A GAEM IT NEEDS 2 B TEH FUNZ" or the other way around. Because honestly, i think both are correct.
Yo, no reason you can't have fun AND be competitive. It's not like we're asking everyone to go beast Jack next ranbats, just try to step up how they think of their losses during shit like tourneys and ranbats. Heaps of people complain about just getting smashed by the good players cause it's not fun losing, thinking like this will at the very least lower your smashing to a beating.
Quote from: [NIUE] BIRRY WONG on November 11, 2010, 04:32:54 PM
Yea for sure. I just dont want to say something like. "YOU GUYZ NEED TO B MOAR SRS" when at the same time im also thinking "ITZ JUST A GAEM IT NEEDS 2 B TEH FUNZ" or the other way around. Because honestly, i think both are correct.
Yer fuck. Atleast you clicked on before you started posting. I didn't and got lost on what i was saying very quickly lol.
Quote from: geneterror on November 11, 2010, 03:42:11 PMI know even at Ranbats during casuals sometimes you don't feel like you can pause midgame and say either "Hey you keep hitting me with that what am I doing wrong" or "I keep hitting you with move X you do need to do more of this".
This is one of the reasons we've suggested that people find someone they want to play with and have a set with them instead of one game and loser gets off. They can either play serious or can try some new things out and go over the match up. The ranbats are just as much for levelling up as they are for kicking back and talking shit.
The reality is it's not always easy at ranbats tho. I asked rumble to show me some guile stuff (which he said sure) but
it just didn't happen cause of everyone else playing and taken their turn etc and i was hardly gonna ask 2 people to
get off the machine so i could have some games so i just never got to play rumble.
thats why u watch him play others that can beat him and see how they delt with the problems you have^^
or even better search for some top lvl players playing guile vs your char and compare what they do right and wrong, what worked and didn't.
You proly say you don't know what to look out for.. but you just have to watch more and try bit by bit :P thats how we learn right? trial and failure.
Following on from what Zosla said, when I started out playing SF4 a big part of my learning was from watching the top players play. I never thought about why they did what they did, I just went about trying to mirror their play/moves/combos. Even though I gained a lil bit of knowledge trying to play like them, alot of the reading and understanding the technical stuff came much later.
Tbh, I still do that now.
(edit, oh Rumble posted before me - but mostly my post before was in response to Rory, but i'll continue on this track anyway.. :P )
Well i'm playing Guile but i get what you mean.
I think watching others at the moment for me is still, "i have trouble with everything, where do i start?". Which is why someone else helping
is so good, they can spot your weaknesses straight away, ones i don't even realize i have cause i know no better.
I think really the stuff that makes the biggest difference to me is knowing the "general strategy" in a matchup. Like Lenny will tell me in
one brief sentence "against sim, you basically want to keep him out with booms and punch/attack his limbs (but just quietly you're kinda fucked
for now..)".
Which is why i'm surprised there isn't a site out there that just lists this stuff. (i've posted that here before..)
Why is there no "If you're (insert char) playing (insert char), you want to approach the match with this in mind ............ " list somewhere? :D
I've tried the SRK site but its a clusterfuck of disorganization.
Fuck it, i'm gonna start a thread here and ask people to post it. :P
Hey Hook take a look here http://streetfighterdojo.com/sf4/index.html although it is SSF4 mixed in with Vanilla a lot of it translates across. I know it's still vids but they are matchup specific and sometimes the commentary drops some knowledge bombs so I hope it's more like what you're after.
You basically choose you character and then choose the character you want to watch the matchup. Not sure if it's been kept up to date but I watched a lot of the vids when I was learning Bison.
Ah yep, been there but for the ST one.. thanks man.
Quote from: CaptainHook on November 12, 2010, 10:14:03 AM
(edit, oh Rumble posted before me - but mostly my post before was in response to Rory, but i'll continue on this track anyway.. :P )
Well i'm playing Guile but i get what you mean.
I think watching others at the moment for me is still, "i have trouble with everything, where do i start?". Which is why someone else helping
is so good, they can spot your weaknesses straight away, ones i don't even realize i have cause i know no better.
I think really the stuff that makes the biggest difference to me is knowing the "general strategy" in a matchup. Like Lenny will tell me in
one brief sentence "against sim, you basically want to keep him out with booms and punch/attack his limbs (but just quietly you're kinda fucked
for now..)".
Which is why i'm surprised there isn't a site out there that just lists this stuff. (i've posted that here before..)
Why is there no "If you're (insert char) playing (insert char), you want to approach the match with this in mind ............ " list somewhere? :D
I've tried the SRK site but its a clusterfuck of disorganization.
Fuck it, i'm gonna start a thread here and ask people to post it. :P
Okay,
Just want to correct you on this,
there is NO one way of playing a matchup, because each player has a different style so you have to adapt yourself in playing differently everytime against the same char but different player usng them.
For example:
The Guileguy who we know from previous tournament that he is very SF2 style guile, so when Hue(crazykiller, I'm too lazy to spell your name properly) plays him, he just rushes him down till death and it works, this is because Hue, plays a rushdown Ryu style which works against the Guileguy.
But when I play the Guileguy and try to rushdown Ryu, it doesn't work. This is because the way we approach each condition during the match is different, we decide to do different things at different times, so what works for him may not work for me, even though we use the same char and vsing the same opponent. This doesn't mean Hue is better than me nor vice versa, its just that we have different style.
Another example,
Hue plays Lennys Dhalsim, he tries to rush down, but it doesn't work against Lenny.
I play Lenny and I play rush down as well, but my rushdown works.
It doesn't mean I am better than Hue, its us playing differently, but using the same technique.
Not sure if I am on point with this one...but what I am trying to say is u can't set foot on ONE way of approaching the matchup as doing so you are limiting yourself options. You must change accordingly, according to your opponent.
Hope I didn't offend anyone^^
I understand that Andy, didn't mean to suggest there is one way to play. Just "general" strategies.
oh yes, thats why I put in the end to say I might not be on point^^
SRK has char threads where they point out what u can do and not do for certain chars matchup etc, that is the general info you need???
Yeah, you just have to wade through heaps of crap and try find all the good bits. I'm just surprised no one has collated all the good info
and posted it in a more accessible way. Which is what i first said. "I've tried the SRK site but its a clusterfuck of disorganization. Why has no one ....." :D
Quote from: CaptainHook on November 12, 2010, 11:25:22 AM
Yeah, you just have to wade through heaps of crap and try find all the good bits. I'm just surprised no one has collated all the good info
and posted it in a more accessible way. Which is what i first said. "I've tried the SRK site but its a clusterfuck of disorganization. Why has no one ....." :D
http://shoryuken.com/f258/typhoon-sonic-boom-vortex-ssfiv-guile-matchup-thread-248948/
2 mins on shoryuken, guiles match ups and general strategy aginst characters.
Cool thanks, i've read threads in that section before and they were mostly people disagreeing with each other about what to do. :P
Didn't notice that one cause the thread is 8 pages (fuck that) and the title is so long i didn't even realize it's a matchup thread.
eg. What the fuck is typhoon and why does it relate to Guile? Why not just called "Guile Matchups" - fucking hell. :D
That one seems good although i just started to read and got to this "I’m also not posting obvious punishable stuff. We all know how to punish shoryus.".
Not me. Lol. :(
The beginning stages of learning how to play street fighter is among the most fun I have had playing the game. You should really just try and find things out for yourself. The ability to figure out how to deal with shit is probably the most important skill in fighting games and yet you want to avoid this learning process? If you get spoon fed to the point where you can compete you will have a major hole in your understanding of street fighter and wont be able to progress past a certain point. If the internet doesnt ive you answers then figure it out for yourself. If you aren't motivated enough to do that then you really shouldnt play street fighter because tbh what other joy are you going to get out of playing?
I'm not the kind of person who could figure it out myself. Maybe you are, but not me. If it wasn't explained to me, i'd never in a million
years figure out this stuff. Especially without spending hours a day playing. So maybe i'll never get good at fighting games, no big deal.
But i've learnt a lot of different subjects over the years, and generally i need to get "spoon fed" the basics so that i have a foundation
to do my own learning on top of.
"Standing on the shoulders of giants".
Every master practitioner in history had a mentor that was a master in their own right. Why re-invent the wheel on stuff people have
already done the hard work on?
Progression is when you take the lessons learnt from the past, and go beyond them.
That's what works for me. Others may be different which is fine.
Name a master practitioner who didn't have to prove that he was worthy of getting his mentor.
Generally it happens in the situation of the gifted that a teacher will refer a student to a "master mentor" once they can no longer teach them anymore.
Are you suggesting the apprentice learnt by himself his skills to prove himself prior to getting his mentor? There are probably exceptions (as always)
but mostly that would be ludicrous.
There's of course many ways some can end up with a mentor like the mentor spots raw talent and can see potential, or just simply likes the apprentice
or is related etc and wants to take them on. Other times there is organized mentorship, where the requirement might just be that you have enough
money to pay for it.
None of that really matters because the point is even the greats need guidance. Even after they have "proven they're worthy of a mentor".
Teaching exists for a reason. Because learning by yourself is at most times not as effective as GOOD teaching.
I'm not discounting that learning time on your own is essential. Just a reminder of the value of well formed teaching environments.
Bunta and Takumi
Care to elaborate on your reference for those who don't know it? (i.e me :D)
Hey Hook, do you actually want to learn how to play SF4? Do you really want to get better? I get the feeling that you just want to be a "decent" casual gamer, because imo you have a whole casual approach to learning it. Nothing wrong with that, but if you want to be a great player (like i do), then you shouldn't mind wading through pages and pages of info and spending hours in training mode and putting in sessions online.
You only get out what you put in, right?
No matter how good a teacher I am, I can't teach someone who can't run 100m without getting tired to be good at Tennis, I can't teach someone who isn't used to holding a brush how to paint. You need some sort of fundamentals before you get mentored in something. So either a) start paying someone or b) learn your punishes, learn your bnbs and learn your normals then start asking to be taught.
Quote from: IR U IM B IL E on November 12, 2010, 01:23:01 PM
Hey Hook, do you actually want to learn how to play SF4? Do you really want to get better? I get the feeling that you just want to be a "decent" casual gamer, because imo you have a whole casual approach to learning it. Nothing wrong with that, but if you want to be a great player (like i do), then you shouldn't mind wading through pages and pages of info and spending hours in training mode and putting in sessions online.
You only get out what you put in, right?
I would honestly have no problem doing all the that if i had the time. But currently i work up to 12 hour days and have 2 days off this month.
So yeah, i would spend the time but i dont have it. So i need to learn "smart".
The thing is, i've learnt MANY different subjects from the internet. And it's probably cause this is a small community globally, but it's BY FAR the
most disorganized in terms of learning. And there's WAY less useful resources. But it's probably a size thing. So it might be that i just can't learn this
the same way i do everything else because in the grand scheme it's not popular enough or established enough to have a matured structure
to the community.
I have also come across a lot of people with the attitude of "you're too newb for me to help you or waste my time".
Which as an outsider to the gaming world, is quite unique to this group. Never come across it before.
It's definitely enough to turn someone off.
Quote from: Oleetworth on November 12, 2010, 01:29:54 PM
No matter how good a teacher I am, I can't teach someone who can't run 100m without getting tired to be good at Tennis, I can't teach someone who isn't used to holding a brush how to paint.
To be honest, that's a pretty fail teacher that can't get teach the basics or requirements for an activity.
OR, it's someone who doesn't want to "waste their time teaching complete beginners".
Ok I dont really know how to reply to that so Im just gonna plop down some basic street fighter game play as Guile
Your goal in any street fighter round is to either deplete the other persons life bar or have more life than the other when the time runs out
To do this you use many offensive and defensive tools.
As Guile you have a fireball that allows you to control most of the space in front of you on the screen. Each fireball works differently.
Your Anti airs (c.hp, flash kick and so on) allow you to control the space above you at different points in the air.
Normals like st.hp,f.hp,c.mk and c.mp are all good for controlling space at mid range.
By using these tools you can effectively control the vast majority of the screen. Obviously it is part of your characters design to do so. This is the focal point of your character and is what you need to work on the most.
Guile has a few offensive moves. He has a throw like everyone, standard close and mid range normals that do not link easily into combos, an over head to break crouch blockers and a pretty bad crossup in j.lk. His offensive pressure is fairly limited outside of the corner and does not net a lot of damage. Goin offensive is something that you want to avoid as guile. Most of his bad matchups are, no surprise here, ones where his ability to stay defensive is limited.
When Guile is defending up close he has some decent tools. Flash kick will beat most of your opponents offensive options except block, crossups, well timed jump ins and moves with more invincibility than flash kick like shoto ex dp. You should never attempt to flash kick a crossup or well timed jump in. The only options there which force you to guess are block and high invincibility type moves. FADC allows you to eliminate one of the guesses by making your flash kick safe on block. It is important to remember that when you flash kick without ex meter for fadc you are taking a big gamble that has high risk and low reward. This is not a got to option.
Throw tech stops you from getting thrown and pushes the character away from you. Most characters can only tick throw you from 1 or 2 jabs range. The exception to this is being kara throws like kens. Throw tech can be made safer by teching in downback position with c.lp+c.lk. Learning to tech throws is essential to getting better at sf.
Quick normals like c.lp and c.lk. These can be used to give you space but lose to almost all of your opponents options if he is executing them properly. medium risk low reward.
Block loses only to throws and causes you take take a small amount of damage from special moves. Crouch blocking loses to overheads(certain normals specials and jump attacks) and stand blocking loses to lows. Most overheads can be reaction blocked with practice. Blocking low shuts down almost all of your opponents options. THIS IS YOUR BEST DEFENSIVE TOOL. Understand that there is no damage reward for blocking but the advantage gained from successful blocking is large when compared to the relatively low risk you took. When combined with tech throws and well timed flash kicks your defense will be very hard to crack.
If you understand this all then you already have the foundation needed to get better. Specific information is out there. If you dont know how to punish something then go into training mode, record what ever it is thats troubling you and try stuff out. Learn your combos. Watch videos and try too see how good guiles use there tools to deal with situations. Ask questions but dont expect to always get answers when your not putting in th work yourself.
If you still want to argue after this then I dunno man
I don't know which gaming communities you've been learning from, but I know if you step into a first person shooter community and start asking people to teach you how to play, you're not going to get much of a response.
@ Hook,
I get what you mean and how you feel about the overall community, we are small that we don't have the people to write up and compile stuff together, but there is always teh SRK forums which has tons of info, u just need to look.
Basically there is no short cut to this is what the other are trying to say, no free lunch right^^
Anyways, From what I see, people are starting to get a bit grumpy about this whole thing.
Hook is only trying to find a way so he could have a easier way to learn, IF possible. As his time to learn these are limited like many of us, so take it easier people.
Only recommendation I can give you hook, is MAKE time if you really want to improve, come to Yifans at lunch when u can, money on the table will make u perform x10 better. :P
QuoteI have also come across a lot of people with the attitude of "you're too newb for me to help you or waste my time".
Which as an outsider to the gaming world, is quite unique to this group. Never come across it before.
It's definitely enough to turn someone off.
This I feel the same.....but it can't be helped once people lose their patients
That was actually a pretty sweet post Ben, and i knew maybe half of it, and wasn't really aware of the rest.
I'm not arguing for the sake it, i'm just saying as an outsider new to this there's an obvious problem with the way this community
passes on it's knowledge and maybe you've all gotten use to it or grown up with it, but it's there.
The same way i thought the xbox interface is retarded and badly laid out. I'm used to it now and have learnt it's quirks and don't mind it,
BUT it seems like it's just evolved into what it is and is messy. Like a well planned city versus one that evolved. Messy street structure
versus easy to follow.
Quote from: fluxcore on November 12, 2010, 01:50:59 PM
I don't know which gaming communities you've been learning from
None, just this one. Like i've said many times, i'm not a gamer. I started to play ST at work a few months ago. Here i am.
I would not be surprised if the whole gaming community was very self-focused also. I don't think it's a good thing.
And i wouldn't say your example is something you should use as an excuse or as an example because it's a shit way to be IMHO.
It does not promote progression at all.
Andy ~ yeah i know what you're saying. Thanks.
You have to remember that this community is only a few years old and the game which we play is little over 20 years old. This aint some age old art like music.
There is no such thing as a professional street fighter teacher
You cant go get a Bachelor of Fighting games from Auckland university
No one is getting paid for this and it is taking time out of our lives
Most people play games out of selfish ambition
We are gonna help because we want more people to play fighting games with but how much we choose to help should totally be up to us and shouldnt be frowned upon when you consider the current state of the fighting game community. Comparing us to microsoft is a little unfair dont you think?
Quote from: zosla on November 12, 2010, 01:54:43 PM
From what I see, people are starting to get a bit grumpy about this whole thing.
Hook is only trying to find a way so he could have a easier way to learn, IF possible. As his time to learn these are limited like many of us, so take it easier people.
i think people are starting to get a little annoyed is because we have posted replies to hook before about fundamentals and character specific stuff and it sounds like he hasn't read or watched them, then he says shoryuken is cluttered and not layed out properly (which it is to an extent) but all the information he need is there and the information he is looking for is stickied which isn't hard to find. I'm not trying to deter anyone from fighting games at all the more the better it just sounds like your asking for the same stuff over and over.
http://nzism.alphaism.com/forum/index.php/topic,467.765.html
rumble posted this which you read maybe you should re read it as it has the staple punish for shoryu's in there
http://nzism.alphaism.com/forum/index.php/topic,467.780.html
i posted this a while back maybe you can re read
http://nzism.alphaism.com/forum/index.php/topic,1505.0.html
electrics thread about articles and i made a post at the bottom as well.
I know its alot to digest, hope i don't sound like a dick, weazzy throw a diezal at me.
Good post Ben,
Ben is one of the many who actually study for his progression :) good example, he knows all teh ins and outs that many/ including the top players don't know.
Sometimes I wish I can do the same but I just don't like reading :(
Anyways, take this as a few step of many for you Hook :)
Many of us are happy to answer your questions, eg. how do I get out of pressure situations?
Answer = EX flashkick FADC backwards, dash back get hit once at most and resets position, option select throw on wakeup etc etc.
How you do it is up to u, u have to integrate this into ur gameplay.
The other thing you have to remember is none of us are Street Fighter masters. None of us are truely international top tier players and we're all trying to work on our games because there is a lot we don't know or understand. We can't give you all the answers because we don't know them ourselves.
edit// Over it.
(http://i39.tinypic.com/9is68l.jpg)
You coming to ranbats hook?
Yes and i'm gonna fucking waste you cunts. :D
Hahaha sweet see you there
Hook. Why do you want to learn and get better at Street Fighter?
I love playing ST. Everyone seems to play SSF4 tho so i figure i should learn that to get more chances of playing the really good
players to improve at SF in general. If it was 3s or another version that was the popular choice i'd be trying to get good at that.
But yeah, i love ST.
Im sure u will enjoy SSF4, its definitely one of the best SF made. But of course we have some people who finds it being shit so it can go either way for u :P I personally enjoy it :)
RANNPHATTTSSSSS!!!!
Quote from: WoundLenny on November 10, 2010, 11:51:40 AM
"Laugh Less, Think More"
These articles won't have a roadmap to becoming the best. In fact they contain no tips at all. They are about challenging your personal thinking about our community and the game. In fact, if you read these articles and reply with "oh yeah I learned this OS and it made me heaps better" you will have missed the point entirely. The challenge isn't being thrown down to your execution, your zoning, or your reactions. The challenge here is being thrown down to your attitude and your thinking.
very nice article, very good job Lenny !!
The bold sentence is the reason why Kevin has 0 practice and still smash everyone at every tournament. He's dropped his execution, his zoning, his reactions but he still has a clear idea of how fighting games are supposed to be.
IMO,
understanding the concept of fighting games is a lot more important than understanding the game system itself. I have proven this by winning 20 games in a row against different KOF players when i played KOF the first day. That's why I've said: "They know how to play KOF, but they don't know how to play fighting games"
I can see there's a lot of potential players in our community because they have a very strong passion for the game. And I believe Lenny & Rorooze are doing their best to unlock those potential.
I have stopped playing this game for a long time, and my skill level is worse than many players in this community at the moment. So I'd probably in no position to give people advise..... But for those who wants an advice from the old Cr8zyK1LL3r. My only advise is:
stop physically training the game for a while and put more mentality training into it. This is like a war, physically training = building up your army, mentality training = building up strategies. History has proven that having a big army and bad strategy will lose to a small army with good strategy.
My English is not very good but I think you all know what i mean ^_^ And I'm sorry If my post offends anyone.
personally i think its not a bad thing have the levels of competition from kevin/simon vs others in that mid range vs guys like me trying to learn and excel in the game. It really means that every week or two there is always a new step that is taken and goals that are achieved, also i think thats where progress will happen, when new people come into the community and have there own style and different take on a character. My next goal is to win a match at next ranbats. some would say thats small but for guys like us its there and for the taking. In short i think the community would be alot smaller with out that mid tier guys who want to have some fun in a game they enjoy.
Setting goals, no matter how small, is an incredibly important step in the process :)
that's right,
have goals + motivations = improving
Quote from: LN on November 13, 2010, 09:04:50 PM
Setting goals, no matter how small, is an incredibly important step in the process :)
I really think this is specific to the individual. Recently I realised something and I felt that my game increased exponentially. I think the key is look at yourself. See what works for you and go with that. If that's having a goal that's awesome but I don't think this is the only way.
at the end, u have teh same goal, which is to improve, just different ways of improving.
your mental training is as important as your physical training.
I'm sure this has already been suggested, but maybe next year we could advertise more vigorously? I'm sure there are quite a lot of people in the area who play the game, are looking to get competitive or want to try it some time, but just don't know where to begin, not everyone is internet savvy.
Try get some coverage from popular sources, radio, television. I'm not going to apologize if these seem like generic and hard to accomplish ideas, like the opening post states. We won't get anywhere with attitudes like that.
(I emailed various television stations with information on the CHRISTMAS DAMAGER and the other happenings the community gets up to, I'm not a very active member in the offline scene yet, but I thought with some pushing maybe they would give us a look and show other people we are serious about what we do and that we are open to anyone who wishes to join in and learn!)
Big apologies guys. This stuff has proved to be much more difficult than I thought. Have just finished the rough copy of the second article, and am finally happy with it. Will post it up tomorrow.