Hey does anyone know how priority works in SF4? (or just SF in general) Do moves get assigned priority numbers or is it about invincibility frames? Also are there any famous normal moves that have insane priority or even characters.
Hopefully one of the new Street Fighter Scientists (That's you Toomeke)or Old School Scholars (Flux) can shed some light.
Thanks.
Without looking at code it's pretty much impossible to know.
In general I don't think there's any 'magic number' describing how awesome a move is, it's more a combination of their hit boxes, vulnerability boxes, start up time and invincibility.
There is however the fact that in code, there is an order in which statements get executed. It's entirely possible that this means some moves get evaluated earlier and therefore may win or lose over other moves consistently.
For instance, in UMK3, at the start of each round apparently one player is determined to be 'the one with priority' and things like same-frame jumping attack exchanges will ALWAYS go in the favour of that player for that round. Yeah, that's pretty stupid.
HTH
From my understanding, it's like Flux said... Hitboxes, start up, active frames, invincibility frames etc all rolled into one to make this mythical "priority" attribute.
You have boxes that hit, and boxes that can BE hit... if one of your hittable boxes is in the way of a box that can hit, you will be beat out. Hit invincibility (ala Rufus' EX messiah, Abel's EX/normal roll) works by taking away the box that can be hit for a certain number of frames, and trades occur when two moves' hittable boxes collide with each other.
Sorry if that sounds confusing, but it makes sense... although I'm not very good at explaining it
Quote from: electric on December 07, 2009, 04:47:43 PM
From my understanding, it's like Flux said... Hitboxes, start up, active frames, invincibility frames etc all rolled into one to make this mythical "priority" attribute.
You have boxes that hit, and boxes that can BE hit... if one of your hittable boxes is in the way of a box that can hit, you will be beat out. Hit invincibility (ala Rufus' EX messiah, Abel's EX/normal roll) works by taking away the box that can be hit for a certain number of frames, and trades occur when two moves' hittable boxes collide with each other.
Sorry if that sounds confusing, but it makes sense... although I'm not very good at explaining it
Yeah you confused me lol. And best ''priority '' moves would be invincible frames with hit frames like EX Upeercuts .
here are some sf4 hit boxes , only ones ever released
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9858/sf4dpbox.jpg) (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/sf4dpbox.jpg/)
I know lots of games prioritise one player, if they clash on the exact same frame. Super Smash Bros does this, but prioritises the closest to Player 1.
Yes I remember hit boxes now. I remember Night Warriors had a code where you code make the hitboxes visible during play.
I'd like to see a lot more online guides with SF4 hitboxes. (More so than frames rates.)
SSF4 should have an option to turn on hit boxes in training like HD:Remix does!
Quote from: geneterror on December 08, 2009, 08:05:29 AM
SSF4 should have an option to turn on hit boxes in training like HD:Remix does!
Hell yes.
I think also timing is very important as well, to be included in the table in context to this question.
I personally just do whatever works best, it is like when I see a move I do certain moves to counter, instink thing I guess? playing witht eh frame rates and numbers/ invisibility is too much for me lol. just whatever works for me!!!
Quote from: zosla on December 08, 2009, 08:36:06 AM
I think also timing is very important as well, to be included in the table in context to this question.
I personally just do whatever works best, it is like when I see a move I do certain moves to counter, instink thing I guess? playing witht eh frame rates and numbers/ invisibility is too much for me lol. just whatever works for me!!!
Frames/hitboxes/numbers/invincibility is the reason WHY its working. I guarantee that You DO think about it, at least subconsciously. That 'instinct' you think you have, is actually based on experience and knowledge of these things.
For example: Why dont you jump in on a gief lariat? Because it will hit you right? Well, WHY will it hit you? Because of where the active hitbox is. Similarly, how do you punish it? Hes vulnerable low, so you sweep him? WHY is he vulnerable low? because his 'hittable' area is there, and is not protected by any active/invincible hitboxes at the right distance.
Its the same with footsies. You walk into your opponents sweep range, and then quickly out again, so that you can punish the inevitable sweep. The range that your judging is based on where the hitboxes of both characters are.
You ARE thinking about hitboxes. You just havent realised it. The only people that dont think about the hitboxes (Where things hit. What will beat them from what range etc.) are mashers. Plain and simple. If you know where an attack will hit you, and where you can punish an attack, youre thinking about hitboxes. Its actually a lot less technical than you think.
PRIORITY is a totally different thing alltogether. But again, its something we think about, that some of us may not realise. What move do you use to counter? The one that beats the opponents attack. WHY does it beat the opponents attack? Higher priority.
There you go Andy, you know more about all of this than you thought you did. :)
Bill, I get what you are saying, but like in my dictionary I don't think about those things too much as mentioned. Its like as you said experience? someone sweep me, I walk back and forward again and counter, plain simple logic even in the real world. I mean I don't know the hitbox range, frame rate or whatever it is, probably subconcious reaction as u mentioned. I may know more than I think I do but then again i never think about it since I really hate thinking soo much durign the game, I play to enjoy and relax :D I remember my first time hearing startup frame for a Ryu srk from ben at his pad... I was like err... what iz tat.
So really, I think getting too technical in all this is really frustrating tbh, just play as you please and really judge you gameplay with experience. But I guess some knowledge would always be of help ( thanks BEN!!! ) he is my dictionary lol.
sweep the leg
Quote from: zosla on December 08, 2009, 09:57:45 AM
Bill, I get what you are saying, but like in my dictionary I don't think about those things too much as mentioned. Its like as you said experience? someone sweep me, I walk back and forward again and counter, plain simple logic even in the real world. I mean I don't know the hitbox range, frame rate or whatever it is, probably subconcious reaction as u mentioned. I may know more than I think I do but then again i never think about it since I really hate thinking soo much durign the game, I play to enjoy and relax :D I remember my first time hearing startup frame for a Ryu srk from ben at his pad... I was like err... what iz tat.
So really, I think getting too technical in all this is really frustrating tbh, just play as you please and really judge you gameplay with experience. But I guess some knowledge would always be of help ( thanks BEN!!! ) he is my dictionary lol.
What im trying to say is that all the stuff discussed is just words. It makes it all sound really technical, but mostly its natural assessment of the situation in-game.
One person can say 'My sweep punishes Zangiefs lariat',
and another can say:
'Due to the active hitbox position on zangiefs lariat, the punish i can use is my sweep, due to its active hitbox being able to strike zangief in his vulnerable hitbox where he is not protected by the aggressive points on the lariat'
They both mean the exact same thing. What im saying is that the first person is thinking the same thing as the second person, hes just doing it differently. Like you say, its plain and simple logic really.
Its just words and technical terms and things. Makes it sound complex, but most people actually DO understand it all, at least on some level.
the most important point imo is that the OP asked for a TECHNICAL EXPLANATION of the EXPERIENTIAL FINDINGS, so saying "Oh I don't need all this data to play" is a completely off-topic and unnecessary comment.
Quote from: fluxcore on December 08, 2009, 10:23:45 AM
completely off-topic and unnecessary comment.
standard procedure on this board.
Keeping this mostly on topic...
Andy - while lots of people (like yourself) play and learn through experience, it doesn't come that easily to others (like myself) ... I prefer to learn the ins and outs of the technical side, as that's the side that makes the most sense to me. I can play 200 rounds against Zangief and still jump in on him, because
a) I'm stupid
b) I learn REALLY slow through experience
Knowing that jumping at Zangief is a bad idea "because it hurts" doesn't mean anything to me... understanding WHY it hurts is more important to me... The only way around lariat is to either stop jumping, or hit him in the head, where he has no active hit box... but you'd never know that if you just stopped jumping altogether
yes I guess Fluxcore is right about what the question is, but all I am saying is that you best to not think about all that stuff and play the game to your desire as it will clear your mind with all the jubberish :P, honestly I won't call the ones who use the technical terms stupid as I think that maybe a better way to learn the game, though i am not as smart to understand all those technical stuff and CBF lol, so I play with my action - reaction (physics) and experience.
Quote from: fluxcore on December 08, 2009, 10:23:45 AM
the most important point imo is that the OP asked for a TECHNICAL EXPLANATION of the EXPERIENTIAL FINDINGS, so saying "Oh I don't need all this data to play" is a completely off-topic and unnecessary comment.
Yes, thank you!
I started this thread because people talk about priority a fair bit but I've never seen it broken down before. And by the sounds of things it sounds a bit fuzzy on how it's made up.
That mentioning of hit boxes was very interesting as I used to think about that a lot. But not much recently. (I'm talking about conscious thought here btw) So you've got three areas then. An area that hits, an area that can be hit, and an area that's invincible?
I think we all subconsciously get to know these areas over time and experience but for example seeing of the areas of say the light, medium and heavy Flash Kicks would really be an eye opener and you could actively apply that knowledge.
And Graham I didn't know that the hitboxes were an option on HDR. I might try that out just for the fun of it!
Well, tbh an 'invincible' frame is just one where there is NO vulnerability box, i.e. you CANNOT be hit. You could say I suppose that Guile's upside down kick is invincible at the feet, since there's no vulnerability box there, but true invincibility is complete lack of vulnerable area.
Quote from: fluxcore on December 08, 2009, 10:23:45 AM
the most important point imo is that the OP asked for a TECHNICAL EXPLANATION of the EXPERIENTIAL FINDINGS, so saying "Oh I don't need all this data to play" is a completely off-topic and unnecessary comment.
My bad. Just explaining shit(my point of view) to Andy. The whole time i was thinking 'this topic should be about PRIORITY anyway. Noone cares what i think about how people think about htiboxes.
Quote from: fluxcore on December 08, 2009, 11:31:44 AM
Well, tbh an 'invincible' frame is just one where there is NO vulnerability box, i.e. you CANNOT be hit. You could say I suppose that Guile's upside down kick is invincible at the feet, since there's no vulnerability box there, but true invincibility is complete lack of vulnerable area.
True, true. Yeah I was meaning moves like Guiles upside down kick or Blanka's hop.
Fuck i'm sure theres something on eventhubs that would explain it in the best way.
Some things are fucked up though, like I can st,HP with Sim twice throuhh Gief's lariot. But I can just sweep him like a bitch with other chars sometimes. Thats where frame counting would come in handy.
Here bro.
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/jul/08/street-fighter-4-strategy-guide-hints-and-tips/
At the bottom in advanced bro. Plus no rambling off topic nonsense lol.
Quote from: weazzyefff on December 08, 2009, 12:27:55 PM
Here bro.
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/jul/08/street-fighter-4-strategy-guide-hints-and-tips/
At the bottom in advanced bro. Plus no rambling off topic nonsense lol.
quoted:
How does the game decide which moves beat each other?
Some people assume that the moves in Street Fighter have a mysterious 'priority', meaning there's some way the game decides which moves win out if they're both done at nearly the same time, but in reality everything is based off the location of your hit boxes.
If you stick out an attack that connects with your opponent's Hittable Box near the same time they stick out an attack that also connects with your blue boxes, your attacks will 'trade hits'.Thanks bro. That explains it all.
Mind you someone answered this curious question:
What's the deal with a standing jab/short beating out a honda headbutt when the headbutt doesn't have a blue hitbox on the head ? How is it that red (hitbox) beats out red.. isn't that some kind of 'priority'?
I saw this question in an earlier post.. but that was about a jumping lk beating out a headbutt..
Can anyone answer this?
sounds pretty much exactly like what I said in my first post...
Hitting someones red box does nothing -- so in the case of jab beating Honda, it's because your red box hits his blue box (feet) before his red box (head) can hit your blue box (your torso)
Quote from: fluxcore on December 08, 2009, 12:50:47 PM
sounds pretty much exactly like what I said in my first post...
And like what I said in my first post... except this post was concise and legible lol
Quote from: CrazyMobius on December 08, 2009, 12:42:02 PM
Mind you someone answered this curious question:
What's the deal with a standing jab/short beating out a honda headbutt when the headbutt doesn't have a blue hitbox on the head ? How is it that red (hitbox) beats out red.. isn't that some kind of 'priority'?
I saw this question in an earlier post.. but that was about a jumping lk beating out a headbutt..
Can anyone answer this?
wow, true aye, thats a hard one, hmmmm.... I call bullshit.
OR the jab was beating the start up frames of the headbut, not standing far back just jabbing off hondas headbut like a bitch.
Electric has it correct.
Also remember that hit boxes in particular are only 'on' at certain times during an attack, moves with higher priority seem to fall into one or more of three categories:
those that have low Start up frames, high Active frames and some Invincibility frames.
For example Chun and Boxers c.lp in SFIV both have only 3 frames of start up, which means they'll beat out *most* moves with a slower start up if done at the same time. Blanka's Standing hk also has a 3 frame start up before it's active frames which makes it a particularly good anti-air move, the list goes on etc etc etc
One of the initial complaints about SFIV was a decrease in active frames for 'meaty' or heavy moves in comparison to older SF games (SSF2T esp), moves like a level 3 focus attack only have as little as 2 active frames (as in 2 frames where they actually hit) which leads to all sorts of crazy things if you're planning on trapping someone with a focus attack in the corner as they can dash backwards 'through' the LVL3 focus to avoid it, as your hit invincibility to non-projectile and non-grab moves is around 4-8 frames depending on a character's backdash.
Other things like weird hitboxes also contribute to move priority, one example I hope is fixed in SSFIV is C.Viper's c.mk. Her attack hit box is only as far as the start of her foot (Ankle), where as her vulnerable hitbox extends to the end of her foot, leaving a tasty *punish* zone where c.mk happy shoto's can literally hit her as she goes for the poke. Stupid. there's also moves that stay 'active' a lot longer than others, typically these are jabs and short moves, but some I know there's a couple of others that hit for a 'long time' more than they should.
I don't know if any of this helps shed a little more light on some of the properties behind priority, but I thought I'd post it up anyway.
Good topic too.
Thats retarded about her mk. Although it sounds to me like the active frames of the move are just ending too early (fucked up how its coded maybe?), which is why it could appear that there is a vulnerability at the end of her foot. This would make more sense to me. But fuck, if the 'red' box is BEHIND the vulnerable box...wtf?
Yeah, how do you actually KNOW the hitboxes for that move?
Quote from: fluxcore on December 08, 2009, 05:21:40 PM
Yeah, how do you actually KNOW the hitboxes for that move?
Someone had a pic of some of Viper's normals with hitbox included in on SRK, I think it was the Moveset thread. That's how we all found out about her close s.mk stopping jumps right above you. . . :D
Oh well. Fuck I know it anyway. Thqts good enough for me. Should of ended with my link. The rest are just addons. Pwah.
Quote from: weazzyefff on December 08, 2009, 07:59:17 PM
Oh well. Fuck I know it anyway. Thqts good enough for me. Should of ended with my link. The rest are just addons. Pwah.
Shouldve started with that link imo. I totally forgot that was even on event hubs.
Quote from: hydrokinesis on December 08, 2009, 05:51:50 PM
Quote from: fluxcore on December 08, 2009, 05:21:40 PM
Yeah, how do you actually KNOW the hitboxes for that move?
Someone had a pic of some of Viper's normals with hitbox included in on SRK, I think it was the Moveset thread. That's how we all found out about her close s.mk stopping jumps right above you. . . :D
mmm...I wouldn't mind jumping into Vipers little hit box...
...Giggity giggity ;)
Quote from: hydrokinesis on December 08, 2009, 05:51:50 PM
Quote from: fluxcore on December 08, 2009, 05:21:40 PM
Yeah, how do you actually KNOW the hitboxes for that move?
Someone had a pic of some of Viper's normals with hitbox included in on SRK, I think it was the Moveset thread. That's how we all found out about her close s.mk stopping jumps right above you. . . :D
It might of been the recovery frames, like all the sweeps.
Quote from: weazzyefff on December 09, 2009, 02:54:28 AM
Quote from: hydrokinesis on December 08, 2009, 05:51:50 PM
Quote from: fluxcore on December 08, 2009, 05:21:40 PM
Yeah, how do you actually KNOW the hitboxes for that move?
Someone had a pic of some of Viper's normals with hitbox included in on SRK, I think it was the Moveset thread. That's how we all found out about her close s.mk stopping jumps right above you. . . :D
It might of been the recovery frames, like all the sweeps.
Thats what i said...>_>
Quote from: ILL_BILL on December 09, 2009, 07:48:09 AM
Quote from: weazzyefff on December 09, 2009, 02:54:28 AM
Quote from: hydrokinesis on December 08, 2009, 05:51:50 PM
Quote from: fluxcore on December 08, 2009, 05:21:40 PM
Yeah, how do you actually KNOW the hitboxes for that move?
Someone had a pic of some of Viper's normals with hitbox included in on SRK, I think it was the Moveset thread. That's how we all found out about her close s.mk stopping jumps right above you. . . :D
It might of been the recovery frames, like all the sweeps.
Thats what i said...>_>
That shit you wrote doesnt even make sense fool, WTF.
Quote from: weazzyefff on December 09, 2009, 09:37:43 AM
Quote from: ILL_BILL on December 09, 2009, 07:48:09 AM
Quote from: weazzyefff on December 09, 2009, 02:54:28 AM
Quote from: hydrokinesis on December 08, 2009, 05:51:50 PM
Quote from: fluxcore on December 08, 2009, 05:21:40 PM
Yeah, how do you actually KNOW the hitboxes for that move?
Someone had a pic of some of Viper's normals with hitbox included in on SRK, I think it was the Moveset thread. That's how we all found out about her close s.mk stopping jumps right above you. . . :D
It might of been the recovery frames, like all the sweeps.
Thats what i said...>_>
That shit you wrote doesnt even make sense fool, WTF.
Active frames ending = move going into recovery frames. 'too early' meaning that the hit frames appear to still be active, when in fact theyre not.
Fucks sake. Its not rocket science.
You just like saying it in a fucked up way.
Mine sounds better. Recovery frames = All the shit you just said. Even though you tried simplifying your last post lol.
I give long winded answers to things. I like shit to be specific.
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2009/dec/08/street-fighter-4-zoning-and-hit-box-video-tutorial/
watch this
shut up
Quote from: fluxcore on December 09, 2009, 12:23:57 PM
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2009/dec/08/street-fighter-4-zoning-and-hit-box-video-tutorial/
watch this
shut up
NOBODY links eventhubs but ME!!!.
Damn cant watch it, net's fucked. Doesnt matter the comments says weazzy is brilliant.
Quote from: fluxcore on December 09, 2009, 12:23:57 PM
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2009/dec/08/street-fighter-4-zoning-and-hit-box-video-tutorial/
watch this
shut up
NO. WE MUST CONTINUE POINTLESS DISCUSSION/ARGUMENT.