Great read from some guy at SRK. Be interested in hearing what people think:
http://shoryuken.com/f2/fighting-games-getting-worse-272529/index1.html
Comparing SF4 to HF makes my mind reel.
I glossed over the AE stuff because I honestly don't care.
"Randomly" caught with an assist? Really?
I agree in a broad sense, but i'm still too new to really have an opinion as i haven't played many games.
But as a new guy, i DEFINITELY feel like i quickly get punished for doing stupid things in MvC3. (still may take me a while to figure out what else to do, but that's for another day..) In SSF4 i felt like i was slowly beat to death with a shoe for doing dumb shit. Of course preference will come into this a lot. I do feel like he was stretching a little to try make mvc3 fit his "current games are worse than old ones" theory. But that's just me.
Quote from: LN on May 04, 2011, 07:24:26 PM
Comparing SF4 to HF makes my mind reel.
Exactly what I was thinking too. Imo he's exaggerating how awesome SF4 is and how not so great SSF4/AE are in comparison. I still think easily being able to punish dropped combos by mashing is retarded.
I also find it strange that "Any character can be picked up, anyone can be used" in Marvel is a bad thing ??? I enjoy seeing a lot of different team combinations.
I guess acouple of his examples aren't that great, but I like the way he is thinking about it. If you read the article you can really understand where he is coming from. I don't necessarily agree with everything in it, but I think he presents an interesting argument.
I kind of agree with his stuff on SSFIV. I still think it's an entertaining game, and great to watch. But I'm not sure I like the direction AE is heading in.
And for MVC3, I think it feels much more like an older game to me. Play careful. Cover yourself and your approach. Have to understand alot more about how to punish things your opponent does etc. I just think that X factor kind of ruins the rest of it though. In saying that, I'd love to see the two new DLC characters that get added get some sort of get off me assist, that you cant combo into. Would make it so that Keepaway becomes a little more viable, while not making rushdown more beast.
I actually think he was just trolling. It's such a dumb topic.
Music has been getting worse since Bach died. etc.
No way, it's not a troll.
It's actually imo a really great topic. I like his thought process. He probably needs to have reread it and thought about his examples more, but I think the centre of his idea is pretty cool.
I also like the reply he made here:
"Think about Cammy VS Ibuki, Ibuki VS Abel, Dudley VS Abel, Cammy VS Abel etc. All of those matches are about "Whoever starts their offense going first wins." In a sense, this means that whoever can create more offense and be more random and unpredictable. It's garbage and its dumb. Look at ryu vs guile, guile vs guile, sagat vs guile. It's all about who can be more defensive and more lame. Is it dumb and boring to watch? Yeah. But its more of a thought process other than random crap. Mirror matches between offensive VS defensive mirrors is a wonderful quick way to understand why defense is better and makes more sense for fighting games. "
I don't agree that it's "garbage and dumb" though. But it is a bit silly. The mental matchup is completed at one exchange and the rest is hold a direction and hope with the first examples. I kinda agree that the thought process in the latter matches would be better.
The irony is that I prefer playing the first type of character's, so I must be to dumb to play the others lol.
Quote from: Lennysaurus on May 04, 2011, 07:48:36 PM
All of those matches are about "Whoever starts their offense going first wins." In a sense, this means that whoever can create more offense and be more random and unpredictable.
Sounds like 3S.
Quote from: moose! on May 04, 2011, 07:54:17 PM
Sounds like 3S.
You have loads of options on defence in 3S don't you? I don't really play it so wouldn't know tbh. Like OS and stuff. Also, I would be scared of just going balls out against someone that knows how to play 3S, cause of parry into asplode your face combo, into sadface okizeme guessing game afterwards.
I think 3S is pretty heavy on establishing momentum and the parry mechanic often is less forgiving to the defender (parrying low vs a high meaty for example) and more useful and nasty for the attacker who can cover his holes with a guess parry and prevent their footsies to gain space etc
OS is likewise, simply because there's more opportunities and options for the aggressive player (for example the MOV SGGK is usually when he has them his opponent in a corner), and crouch teching isn't really a OS option either (crouch techs in 3S throw a jab, all of which are high and low parryable, and then there's kara throws to account for as well).
I see where he is coming from but disagree with a few of his points:
1) "When SF4 Vanilla was out the player was HEAVILY punished for ANY mistake that was made. You jumped in to Sagat? FADC ultra. You’re probably dead. You missed a combo against ryu? FADC ultra. There goes half of your health. Bye! In a sense, you were punished really hard for any mistake that you made because you were CARELESS."
FADC meant you could mash out and be safe, you didn't have to commit to a move that was unsafe if you had 2 bars. This severely reduced the effectiveness of putting pressure on your opponent in turn making characters with good reversals/projectiles that much better. Jumping in on Sagat and getting DP'd for 15-20% was more than enough punishment for a careless jump-in (and losing positioning, etc).
2) "The problem is though, its simply not competitive on any level. Any character can be picked up, anyone can be used, and just apply constant pressure."
Rubbish. Especially as he later goes on to say that the only characters worth using are characters that can DHC glitch. A balanced game or a game that is easy to pick up doesn't make it non-competitive. Case and point would be an FPS game where every person basically has access to the same weapons and movement, or an RTS game which has a very low entry level but huge room to develop as a player.
I'm fairly certain I have heard on these boards and other fighting game sites that SF2 had a low entry level and didn't take long to "get to the good part". I don't see how MVC3 is any easier to pick up (more characters to learn, more moves, longer combos, etc).
3) "Just take a look at the progression of video games in general and just how much more accessible and easy they are all getting. Halo I to Halo II and III. Smash Brothers melee to Brawl…Blaz Blue to CS, and just any game in general. Games are getting less and less competitive. Think about Third Strike, Counter Strike, The original NES games and how HARD they were compared to Wii games, PS3 game difficulty compared to PS1. ETC. "
Blergh. This is a dumb argument. There are still heaps of games which are difficult these days and at the end of the day in a competitive scene you are playing against another person, not the computer..
Meh. Maybe if punishing took more effort than mashing SRK during a block string I would agree with it. Last thing I want to see is more guile players, jesus christ. Damage being toned down doesn't really mean agressive characters have it easier, as they have to work harder for their damage as well.
Matchups like Guile vs Cammy are still going to be in Guiles favor because he gets to down back and do nothing, with sonic booms for free chip and flash kick / crouching fierce for anti air. Being agressive in SF4 means taking risks. If there is one character I think is stupid it's abel, because the risk/reward factor for him is out of fucking whack. But If I do an unsafe divekick or something like that with Cammy then I'm going to lose about 20-25% of my life. Same with even characters like Yun and Yang, they still have to be careful about how they apply it.
It was fucking retarded in vanilla when you could get hit once by a mashed uppercut and then fadc ultra and lose 70% life. It's not a skillful thing when you have such huge reversal windows and on top of that we have a fadc mechanic to make it safe. I'm really just rambling about whatever pops in my head first but.
If you want to play HF then go play HF. Just because the game has changed doesn't make it worse, it's just a different game.
Quote from: Rorooze on May 04, 2011, 08:17:57 PM
I see where he is coming from but disagree with a few of his points:
1) "When SF4 Vanilla was out the player was HEAVILY punished for ANY mistake that was made. You jumped in to Sagat? FADC ultra. You’re probably dead. You missed a combo against ryu? FADC ultra. There goes half of your health. Bye! In a sense, you were punished really hard for any mistake that you made because you were CARELESS."
FADC meant you could mash out and be safe, you didn't have to commit to a move that was unsafe if you had 2 bars. This severely reduced the effectiveness of putting pressure on your opponent in turn making characters with good reversals/projectiles that much better. Jumping in on Sagat and getting DP'd for 15-20% was more than enough punishment for a careless jump-in (and losing positioning, etc).
computer..
I don't entirely get what you are saying here. He is saying that defence is better in Vanilla, as your safe reversal etc has the potential to also net you a ton of damage. While you still get all the other benefits in later iterations of the game, you can nolonger basically end the round with upeprcut FADC ultra anymore. Are you saying that you should save the meter to mash out of a string as opposed to using it in that situation?
Quote from: Chocobuny on May 04, 2011, 08:24:36 PM
It was fucking retarded in vanilla when you could get hit once by a mashed uppercut and then fadc ultra and lose 70% life. It's not a skillful thing when you have such huge reversal windows and on top of that we have a fadc mechanic to make it safe. I'm really just rambling about whatever pops in my head first but.
I honestly think that if the reversal windows were like a normal SF game, that SFIV would have been so much better. But in saying that, could you imagine trying to deal with rufus divekicks, and cammy repeated cannon strikes without them. I guess its a tradeoff, that could go either way. Mashing on SRK to reversal stuff, or endless mindless pressure.
The thing that bugs me with the reversal system in SFIV is that you can mash to wanton abandon, and if you mess it up you still block. That is my issue. If they had made it so that mashing during a tightblock string got you hit, then I think it would have been heaps better.
You're all bad.
Quote from: Lennysaurus on May 04, 2011, 08:39:09 PM
The thing that bugs me with the reversal system in SFIV is that you can mash to wanton abandon, and if you mess it up you still block. That is my issue. If they had made it so that mashing during a tightblock string got you hit, then I think it would have been heaps better.
This. Even though I suck so hard at Marvel, I still think that that the game not auto blocking if your mashing is such a good mechanic.
Quote from: [NIUE] BIRRY WONG on May 04, 2011, 08:43:09 PM
You're all bad.
No u : (
Quote from: Lennysaurus on May 04, 2011, 08:39:09 PM
I don't entirely get what you are saying here. He is saying that defence is better in Vanilla, as your safe reversal etc has the potential to also net you a ton of damage. While you still get all the other benefits in later iterations of the game, you can nolonger basically end the round with upeprcut FADC ultra anymore. Are you saying that you should save the meter to mash out of a string as opposed to using it in that situation?
But he is arguing that the newer games are worse because they make things to easy for casual players, how is a free and safe escape from knockdown pressure with the potential for 40-50% damage not catering to casuals?
Hmmmmm.... It's funny, I've only just started hearing the "SF4 is better than Super" argument the last few months by more and more players. But maybe it's just been the specific people I asked the question to.
It's weird because when SF4 was around a year old people were starting to think it was stupid because it was too defensive and you couldn't be creative enough. You miss a one frame link in a block string, get hit by a mashed dragon into FADC Ultra and loose half your life. The dragon was random, the easy inputs made it random etc etc....
And then when SSF4 dropped people thought it was way better because you had all these new offensive characters, you also had new defensive options (Rufus Ultra 2, Abel's Ultra 2) and more life so one missed link didn't cost you a round. But still, I think alot of the core of what was SF4 was winning tournaments. But now months later this is all random since you can screw up more times and you aren't punished for mistakes.
Balance is definitely not AE's focus, he is right where it is definitely been made into a more offensive game. If it makes things more interesting, then awesome. I know alot of the more casual crowd will not be pleased. Like I wasn't when I first heard the changes. Strangely players I've spoken with don't like the changes but think it's a better game lol. Ricky Ortiz said he hates what the did to Rufus' Ultra 2 and that Yun and Yang are cheap, but jokingly said his favorite games are full of cheap characters so he likes it so far.
I personally think the problem (if there is one) is maybe we aren't giving these games enough time to distill into their core tactics. Most games at a high level require alot of focus because people know how to punish you badly and that the game has matured to the point where players aren't given enough room to screw up.
He raises some interesting points though I dunno if I agree with all of them yet. Still early days in my opinion. Definitely a good read and has given me alot to chew on. (Especially since I have personally become a more lazy player since Super ;) ) Remember how everyone thought 3rd Strike and MvC3 were trash when they came out. I remember people at the local fish n' chips shop not liking Hyper Fighting because the speed made it too "Random"
I generally agree with the post/article, I think modern fighters are getting worse.
But my main two reasons are a bit different:
1. Ultras - can't stand them
2. Difficulty of move execution - why do 1 frame links and super crazy button combos have to exist? I imagine the perfect fighter to be where you can pretty much perform any move / combo at will (i.e low difficulty) but the game still has huge depth. So its more about when to do the move not how. I think this would remove a significant entry barrier.
I think fiteing games r getting bettar becuze I can play them wit my friends online. it is much better now.
Internet makes fighting games crap
AAARRRGGGHHHHHHHHHUUUUUUUUGETTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/7121/664035ryudragonpunchsup.jpg) (http://img837.imageshack.us/i/664035ryudragonpunchsup.jpg/)
shout outs to comeback mechanisms
Quote from: amendonz on May 04, 2011, 09:40:42 PM
shout outs to comeback mechanisms
yeah i thort fighting games got wurse when super meter came in too
yeah i think you know thats not what i mean...
James Chen put it pretty well. Wake up ultras might be scrubby and people hate on the game for having a system like that, but why are you getting hit by wake up ultras?
Not directed at anyone here, just thought it was relevant since stuff like ultras is a main complaint in these new fighting games.
Quote from: Gino on May 04, 2011, 09:28:59 PM
Internet makes fighting games crap
Yeah and this whole thing about screen lag is just ridiculous. Even on home consoles with every game before SF4 this was never an issue.
I disagree with a few of his comments
I think his MvC3 stuff is plain wrong and comparing it to mvc2 even pros said mvc2 was random so i think the two are very similar. You can destroy your opponent with mix ups, you can have big comebacks and rush down is better but keep away is not impossible in both games.
Only real difference was the fact comebacks are made easier with xfactor.
"I don’t know much about mvc2 as a title but I did know you just couldn’t pick up random characters and win against any character. That’s the core problem with fighting games now."
I dont believe characters are really the issue
Mvc2 picking the top tier characters didnt even gaurantee a win, I have beaten many players using high tier characters and destroyed them with low tier.
I think a lot of the issues with fighting games stems from stubborness and pride. People think that they should never lose to someone they deem a scrub.
My only real issue with games like sf4 is the mashed dp through block strings because the attacker has to guess when the opponent is going to mash it out because they might not do it all the time instantly making your attacking game weaker
To play devils advocate just for you Alan
Older street fighter games were too hard and there was a clear difference in ability
1. It was way too defensive and making a come back was nigh impossible because it meant taking bigger risks most likely resulting in more damage lost.
2. There was no variance in characters because if you didnt play ryu or guile you were immediately at a dissadvantage because the tiers had that big of a spread
3. Combos and throws did huge damage so if you made a small mistake you basically lost the match eg refer back to 1
This dude sounds like he got beasted by a scrub and wanted to have a cry lol
and this
The entire game is built around who can create a better offense.
is pretty much one of the main things of mvc2 and hes claiming that its a bad thing for mvc3....lol
you have the mad rush downs and resets and gimicks.
and this
How many times are you RANDOMLY caught with an assist and lose because of some random lucky combo they caught you in? How many times do you work sooo hard and do so much work and lose because of X Factor?
as stupid as xfactor is, its apart of the game.
mvc2 had ahvb, rom, O.G SENT, O.G STORM, glitch jugg, msp, scrub.....the list goes on. Heaps of dumb things, but eventually people got used to them and thats what I think is going to happen with mvc3.
Hasnt even been out 6months.
I have to admit that I started to think this game was ass, but then you learn the system and see how far you can push it, it feels awesome.
and if he did play mvc2, he would know that it started off with keep away/LAME/ style teams, which eventually made way for rushdown team.
Its like natural evolution of gameplay or something.
Niggaz just gotta buckle down and put in the effort........
and i hate mash dp through block strings, but that doesnt mean I wont use it.
Its part of the game and thats all there is to it.
To be honest, mvc3 shouldve had arcade release b4 console, but companys be getting soft and actually tryna sell shit instead of making it O.G locc'
I dont think games are getting worse or easier, we've just been playing them for so long that everything just all becomes the same.
qcf+atk = the universal fighting game special move.
then from there you have your qcb, dp motion.....blah blah blah
niggaz hav always been complaining like bitchez.....just now they have a way to tell the whole world as opposed to their own little community
I love fighting games no matter how annoying any mechanic they have is. Gives you a reason to play to get around them...back to the lab
lol at his b.s. about arthur.....i show dat fool some arthur tricks boiiiiii
Just read it now. I think his premise is completely backwards.
Vanilla was MUCH more scrub friendly BECAUSE of the fact that you could not afford as many mistakes. In Super over the course of a round a better player is expected have have made less mistakes and so should have higher vital because of this. And the one thing SF4 needed was offensive gameplay. I knew this, the community knew this, Capcom knew this. So why didn't this guy catch on? Maybe nobody remembered the amount of people that used Jump Backwards heavy kick, land fireball repeat. Tatsu out when they get close. This was a viable option for scrubs. In Super it became less of an option and in AE they removed the Tatsu escape.
The whole POINT of the first SF4 was to attract newcomers. And then slowly make the game more balanced over time.
So yeah I totally disagree with what he's saying.
Didn't read the part about Marvel.
Cap(NUBZ)com. Dudley does punch ultra at the same time as hakan is already oilsliding well beneath dudleys flower picking mitts.. hakan slide is well below dudleys ultra punch startup yet hakan suffers dud's ultra. This needs balancing. Same too with ultra vs ultra ie guile ultra 2.. should shorten the time frame by 75% where an opponent can counter with there ultra. Might as well roll out the red carpet to this no skill needed ultra counter.
I will comment that it seems as if some players don't quite understand why some of these things are bad... The majority of us aren't playing on top level. When dudes get angry at things like mash dp it's not always because of the mechanic, it's because we want the scene to get better and we want to level up. You got dp mashed through your string or combo? Obviously it wasn't good enough, go back to training mode. What are you learning from mashing ultra at 10%? You're already living on borrowed time and you've just gone all in. People get angry because you get such a high reward for little effort, it teaches you when in doubt, mash it out rather than learning to deal with pressure which is a mindset that is really important in every fighting game.
As for being able to punish mistakes making a game scrub friendly, who is going to fuck up more; you or Daigo? Who is going to win, the guy who picks a pattern associated with being a scrub, or the dude who can adapt to a situation and play it to his advantage? Niggas gotta learn, at top level a lot of players just don't make mistakes, the mistakes are forced out of them. A lot of the problem with the AE pressure is that it's stupid safe and dumb. SF4 had offense, the problem was people felt you got rewarded a whole lot more for being defensive and offense wasn't rewarded enough. If I want to get in when I'm playing AE OHOHOHOHO EX CHICKEN WINGGGGGGG then I smash you with my awesome normals and my 1 combo that takes you to the corner or YEEEEEEEAAAAH ROUNDHOUSE DIVEKICK LATERS CUNT awesome normal you or get my 1 combo to take you to the corner.
I think you should all read Dave's post if you haven't. LEVEL UP SCRUBS
Quote from: [NIUE] Optimus DAVE on May 05, 2011, 03:21:26 AM
niggaz hav always been complaining like bitchez.....just now they have a way to tell the whole world as opposed to their own little community
Dave wins
5cents *flick* cheers for the window wipe wiper boy.
This is a hard one. Some games get better then worse then better again.
I dont know why but i cant get into SFIV, It's irritating to me cause it doesnt feel like it flows. Some SF games just have crap controls where 8 times out of ten ryu does a shuriuken when all you wanted was a super combo.
SF 2 turbo --classic but unforgiving
SF Alpha 1 2 & 3 ..awesome..they got it right
MVC 1 2 & 3 ... they got it right (also Sf v xm)
SF 3 TS ...perfect
SF 4 ---irritating but looks pretty (so frustrating that i just switched to Soul Calibur 4 for a long time)
SSF4 --improvement.
But dont listen to me...Ive just started playing MK 1,2 and 3 again and im enjoying it more now than ever.
old school rules.
I think your rundown seems pretty accurate. Goes without saying that different people feel games differently.
The thing about the new generation of games that is jarring is the visual confirmation of when a move hits. In 2d animated games the hit animation was a certain pose or series of poses, whereas in 3d animated games the active hit frames are in an actual fluid animation. So rather than a purely visual cue the brain has to first learn which part of the move hits and for how long. It's not as intuitive.
Hey quick question!?!?!
what do you's think is NZ's biggest fighting game right now?
I'm guessing it's between SF4 and Tekken6.
Sorry i didn't read any of these posts, just impulse posted.
Thats a really good question and I dont think theres a simple answer. I'm all over the place so im not a good example. I get a kick out of discovering fighters that nobody else plays. All the people who are into KOF like me seem to be in Japan.
In NZ the biggest just seems to be the newest. when the hype fades its the true fans that remain. So to put it that way, anything streetfighter seems to have the largest number of true fans. Maybe Teken and dead or alive next because the xbl and psn networks are always full and active. virtua fighter is big in japan. Soul Calibur series isnt big but should be in my opinion.
Does Xbox live have Tekken? For some reason I got it in my head it's Sony only. And Xbox has DOA series right?
Yes x2
Yeah Teken made it to XBOX. When I had a PSP teken 5 (i think it was 5) was the best looking game on a hand held ever...I used to carry teken 5 and street fighter Alpha 3 with me everywhere i went in the world.....I got stranded in London Heathrow for a whole day once and I played Teken 5 the whole time.
If you ask me..over time the teken games have gotten consistanly better, King of Fighters didnt (i still play 2000 most days) Dead or alive was always great, same with soul calibur.
Quote from: HoneyBadger on May 05, 2011, 09:56:15 AM
A lot of the problem with the AE pressure is that it's stupid safe and dumb. SF4 had offense, the problem was people felt you got rewarded a whole lot more for being defensive and offense wasn't rewarded enough.
^ This.
Ohh it just reminds me the horror of S tier Eddy/Ky Kiske in Guilty Gear (Reload?). Once they throw an attack and you blocked it, you are basically stuck in the defensive for a very very long time. Get hit, and the same nonpunishable pressure is going to be repeated over and over again. Thank god for Accent Core.
SF4 actually reminds me of old time SF titles.