The "I have NFI what to do about fuerte on wakeup" thread

[fluxcore]

I've had very little experience against fuerte, so when I play bill I start to froth at the mouth and go crosseyed after he knocks me down.

I think this is mainly because I don't understand my options, and writing things out helps me work this stuff out, so here we go.\
I'm ignoring the 'basic' 50/50 of throw or normal attack, just the 'special fuerte' options.

Assume that the char doesn't have a godlike DP that beats a lot of these options.

I'm also using the term "mitigates" rather than "beats" because most of the things that work end up with you in another shitty situation (like block low good vs slide, but then fuerte has advantage anyway)

Wakeup Options:

Block low
Beaten by:
Splash
Crossup Splash
Tortilla
Mitigates:
Slide (although fuerte is safe or +frames after? So you're back into another mixup)
Fajita buster

Conclusion: fairly stupid option.

Block high (normal)
Beaten by:
Slide
Tortilla
Crossup Splash
Fajita buster
Mitigates:
Splash

Conclusion: fairly stupid option.

Block high (backwards)
Beaten by:
Slide
Tortilla
Splash
Fajita buster
Mitigates:
Crossup splash

Conclusion: incredibly stupid option, unless it's obviously crossup - although this could be a tortilla in which case, stupid option.

Jump
Beaten by:
Splash
Crossup Splash
Meaty Slide
Guacamole
Mitigates:
Tortilla
Fajita buster

Conclusion: fairly stupid option.

Focus-dash
Beaten by:
Tortilla
Fajita buster
Mitigates:
Splash
Crossup Splash
Slide

Conclusion: kinda better

Backdash
Beaten by:
Meaty Slide
Mitigates:
Crossup Splash
Splash
Tortilla
Fajita buster

Conclusion: reasonable option.


Bill says backdash is generally best, which seems somewhat true from this enumeration, but I want to hear more thoughts. And obviously if fuerte KNOWS you will backdash, he can do something about it.

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

At some point, you need to make use of each of those options to actually avoid the first knockdown. Once youre down, and youre in the mixup, youre right where he wants you. 95% of the time, you WILL take some damage from this. The key to winning is to rush him the fuck down. If youre playing defensively, youre trying to react to his shit, which will get you killed when he decides to throw out something random. I know this doesnt address what youre getting at, but ultimately, this is how you need to approach the match.

As for the mixup, start by backdashing, if that gets you out, great. In this instance though, be aware that the fuerte player now knows that you know how to backdash his shit. (might take a couple of times to sink in, but he WILL start approaching you differently)

This limits him (in his mind) to doing meaty slides, shower kicks, j.hp's, or other meaty normals. All of which are begging to be reversal'd, and you dont need a strong DP to reversal them. Damn near any special that isnt say, a fireball, will probably serve you pretty well.

The j.hp you can see coming days before it actually happens, (usually they will try to disguise it as a splash or tortilla by running back, stopping and jumping forward in an attempt to make you backdash again, so be weary.)

Note that the slide is only safe if he is at a decent range, which you will be able to see. He has to hit you with the tip of his foot in order to be at +4. If he does it at point blank, block and punish.

The fuerte match is not about playing basic street fighter. The most important thing is watching him and learning his patterns. If youre on the ground, and are about to be hit with one of his many options, instead of trying to find something that will statistically beat out the most things, you need to think about what stuff he has thrown at you up until this point. Which of it has hit you, and is more likely to be used? What stuff have you been able to block most of the time, thereby discouraging him using it?

If you have blocked 9/10 splashes that he has thrown, he probably isnt going to throw one, so you have eliminated one possibility. At this point he is probably thinking, 'he knows to block splash high, so ill hit him low, or go for a tortilla'. At this point, if you see that fucker go airborne, try a neutral jump, and punish the tortilla recovery on the way down. if he is standing there, finding the right distance, hes probably going to slide, which means its either reversal time, or you block low, and be prepared to tech his throw attempt when the slide is blocked. The mixup isn't meant to be easy to get out of. If you think he is going to just pick an option out of his ass and throw it at you, then you have already lost. You need to be reading him, and thinking in advance about what HE thinks HIS best option is, and then countering it accordingly.

Ultimately though, your best plan is to just exploit his limited defense, and smash him until he has ultra, bait his ultra, then smash him until he dies.

[DVS]

Ha ha...I knew Bill would drop the knowledge bomb on this.....cheers for sharing dude 

Depending on what character your using you might be able to drop one of these options (might have been discussed already but hey):

In order of preference.....

1) I find back dash pretty good -unless like Bill mentioned; Fuerte is sliding or has figured out your backdashing knowledgeness.....
2) EX move (hail Mary)- if you have it (depending on which character you are and how good the EX is), it might hit Fuerte or get you out of the horrible mix up rape...you have to judge this, as if he is bating you with a focus he's either guna let rip or back dash and counter.....
3) Focus attack...works sometimes against a slide or against a splash? (Bill?) in super has this changed?
4) Counter hit with your "get the hell off me" move...DP if you're a shoto.....with good timing this can stop some of Fuertes magic, a counter hit is usually in your favour damage wise as Fuerte doesn't have the best stamina...but if his timing is true you'll en up back on the deck.....
5) ULTRA!!!!-  if you have it and only if you are sure as shit you can connect and again depending on character choice and invinsibility frames -Rose U1 is awesome for this
6) Slow get up...to throw off Fuertes timing....probably the weakest option....

Theres my two cents if they don't work just rage quit.....

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

Focus attacking the splash is really strange from my perspective. Its a good option, but sometimes the FA will hit, and sometimes the splash will cross up. (even when im trying to cross it up on both occasions.) Either way you can absorb and dash, assuming fuerte did something that wasnt tortilla, fajita, or far s.hk.

[fluxcore]

OK I only just realised that Fuerte can only do the tortilla off a back dash. I never thought about it before, so yeah, pay attention to which direction he's running as well.

[Lennysaurus]

Focussing the splash on wakeup is only a good idea if the Furertes players timing is off.  Focus attack has startup, so you will likely get pwened during the startup and eat another mixup.

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

Fuck, no wonder I always get hit when I try a wake up FA.

[DVS]

Ha ha....

Depends on the character I guess.....Cody seems to have a fucking lightning fast FA....quick absorb dash maybe?

[massi4h]

I remember hearing and am finding useful to use an airborne reversal if you have one. I remember hearing Chris Hu talking about Ryu's tatsu being a great option. It avoids all the grabs and the slide iirc and puts you away from the opponent, but if they splash you can quick get-up and then you are usually out of the fuerte vortex.

Even shoryuken or jump in a way seems to be the best to get out of all the options and you'll probably get hit by 1 splash and then you're out. Obviously there are options that beat it like guac but I think that has the most chance of getting out, so long as you still mixup your options a bit.

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

I remember hearing and am finding useful to use an airborne reversal if you have one. I remember hearing Chris Hu talking about Ryu's tatsu being a great option. It avoids all the grabs and the slide iirc and puts you away from the opponent, but if they splash you can quick get-up and then you are usually out of the fuerte vortex.

Even shoryuken or jump in a way seems to be the best to get out of all the options and you'll probably get hit by 1 splash and then you're out. Obviously there are options that beat it like guac but I think that has the most chance of getting out, so long as you still mixup your options a bit.

Jump/shoryuken is asking to be ultra'd. Half the time im baiting the jump anyway to get an airthrow or EX guac. EX tatsu is also asking for punishment if its baited. Its an easy lvl3 focus, splash or ultra if it whiffs. Its basically got the same properties as any other reversal, but it beats safe tortilla, since it hits on both sides.

And dont overestimate your quick get up off of a splash. If the splash crosses up, fuerte is still at the advantage. If its a retarded non-crossup lolfullscreen splash, THEN your quick get up will get you on even ground.

Though i would like to point out that alan doesnt play a character with an EX tatsu, so this doesnt really help him anyway. Vipers wakeup EX flame kick is ok, but even then, its not perfect.