MVC2 Etiquette for casual matches

[Ryan]

et·i·quette     [et-i-kit, -ket]
–noun
1: Conventional requirements as to social behavior; proprieties of conduct as established in any class or community or for any occasion.
2: Rules governing socially acceptable behavior.

Was just thinking about discussing proper etiquette for playing mvc2.  Still don't know what it means?

Let's take for example.  You're winning a game, three of your chars are nearly at full health. Your opponent has practically 1HP left.  You do NOT block damage kill him like a desperate faggot.  Show some sportsmanship and fight it out 1 on 1.  I'm not saying, let him kill 2 of your chars before you kill him, I'm just saying don't play so desperate.  If you know you are at an advantage, i.e. clockw0rk vs dan, then don't be a homosexual

Ok, that's one scenario I can think of (obviously exaggerated a bit).  What are some other "rules" we should make up to keep the peace?

and no, banning Simon from MVC2 is not a rule.

Another I can think of is possibly, don't abuse your gaurd breaks. i.e. You're clearly winning, and they have 1 char left on low HP. Again, don't be mean and gaurd break them. Confusions and mix-ups should be well permitted.  At least the other player has at least a 1/5 chance of defending themselves.




I think this could help make MVC2 more enjoyable for the most of us. If this all sounds rediculous or crazy, just ignore it, and I'll stop smokin that crack 

[Coddfish]

I tend agree with David Sirlin and Seth Killian's views on "fair play".

As far as I'm concerned, good fighting game etiquette is playing the best you can, regardless of the situation. Guard Breaks and what-have-you intact. Even in casual matches, I believe its important for the development of the scene. Playing better sets the bar higher for people to beat you, overall pulling the ability of the local scene higher.

As far as your example, fighting games are a perfect example of good "slippery slope" - or the lack of it. Slippery slope is a term Sirlin uses to refer to games where not being in the lead impairs you, and the further you fall behind the harder it is to catch up.

Even in your example Ryan, being the guy with 3 full-health characters, you should play as hard as you can. Comebacks are a part of slippery-slope free game.

On top of that, I see playing well as a sign of respect. "Even if I know I'm ten times better than you, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and not lower my game."


But obviously, all this is just my opinion, and playing like Thomas Osaki does have its bad side of turning people away.

[fluxcore]

As far as I'm concerned, good fighting game etiquette is playing the best you can, regardless of the situation. Guard Breaks and what-have-you intact. Even in casual matches, I believe its important for the development of the scene. Playing better sets the bar higher for people to beat you, overall pulling the ability of the local scene higher.

I think as a demonstration as to how a game is played, 'making it easy' isn't very useful, either. What makes it even more difficult for MvC2 (and I guess KoF XI, too) is that the match isn't broken up into clearly defined 'rounds' - throwing away 2nd round to an opponent is sometimes good form in casual play (to lengthen the game, and if it's a good opponent you want to play for as long as possible). I have played against people where it was mutually beneficial to give second rounds up for the sake of play, so we did it. I don't really consider that the norm for me though. MvC2 is tricky... do you let them kill your second character? Or as Ryan says, go down to 1 on 1? Does that actually make for a better game, even?

As far as your example, fighting games are a perfect example of good "slippery slope" - or the lack of it. Slippery slope is a term Sirlin uses to refer to games where not being in the lead impairs you, and the further you fall behind the harder it is to catch up.

Well, technically, most fighting games AREN'T slippery slope, as you say. However, MvC2 *IS*. 3 characters vs 1 Magneto is definitely lop-sided - Magneto can't call assists, or DHC, or counter. Despite being top tier, he's at a disadvantage because the secondary tools which make him so, aren't there. This is not to say that it's impossible to come back, but the match isn't isn't just hard... it's actually unfair.

On top of that, I see playing well as a sign of respect. "Even if I know I'm ten times better than you, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and not lower my game."

I agree with this, and in particular if someone goes easy on me *I* feel cheated. I'd rather be wailed upon and lose than be gifted a round or two - because I'm not going to learn anything from a freebie anyway.

But obviously, all this is just my opinion, and playing like Thomas Osaki does have its bad side of turning people away.

Props for knowing who this is...

--flux

[samurai black]

if its one of the regulars, then i dont really have too worry much about etiquette. its the scrubs who i try not to scare away or massacre too quickly. its kinda depressing when they challenge me and i have someone like cable or tron. i let them kill off two characters and inflict some considerable damage on the last one before beating them.

i know some people have scared away any potential newcomers >_>

[fluxcore]

I dunno, depends if there's someone else around I guess. Sometimes it's worth smashing them just to get them off the machine

I tend to think that you need to show them how it's done anyway, and if they don't like how it's played then they won't bother. If they think it's cool or whatever then they are free to ask questions and then training session can begin It's really hard to know how to handle newbies. I got challenged by one guy and his friend, first game I perfected the guy. Then his friend tried, and lost miserably... then they alternated for about 6 games and then went off to play SvC Chaos while muttering. So while I kicked the shit out of them they still wanted to play & give it a go... and I thought that was commendable.

--flux

[Ryan]

As far as I'm concerned, good fighting game etiquette is playing the best you can, regardless of the situation. Guard Breaks and what-have-you intact. Even in casual matches, I believe its important for the development of the scene. Playing better sets the bar higher for people to beat you, overall pulling the ability of the local scene higher.

On top of that, I see playing well as a sign of respect. "Even if I know I'm ten times better than you, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and not lower my game."

But obviously, all this is just my opinion, and playing like Thomas Osaki does have its bad side of turning people away.

It's good that you pointed this out.  I think this is a good way of looking at things if you and your opponent are on level terms. "I'll play to my fullest extent, because you are worth it".   But I don't think I could think the same way against lesser skilled people.

I see gaurd breaks as a flaw in the game. And to continuosly exploit such a flaw isn't really a good habbit to get into. Sure, we can't ignore the fact that it's there, and those flaws are exploited in tournaments, but for casual matches against friends? It's a bit much isn't it?  Also to newbies.   They will see gaurdbreaks and get put off thinking "Oh, this game is so cheap, there's nothing I can do to defend myself from gaurdbreaks".  MVC2 is not a very common console game. People can't really go home and practise, they only have the arcades. And it's plenty damn hard to practise when you play against guys on a higher level who don't give you a fighting chance.  When you are put under pressure, and you are new to a game, you can sometimes forget what you "practised", cause you're constantly blocking.

Well, maybe it's just me that feels this way. But when the only GGXX#R I can play is at the arcades, and XboxHG won't leave me the hell alone when I'm trying to practise, it's really putting off 

I dunno, depends if there's someone else around I guess. Sometimes it's worth smashing them just to get them off the machine

I dono, I never challenge someone if I know I am at an advantage. I just challenge the regulars, or new people who look like that could do some damage 

I guess this all depends on how you look at the situation. If you deliberately play 1v1 when you're clearly winning, then he might think:

1)  This guy is completely trying to mock me. He's not taking me seriously, and is trying to show off.
2)  Oh, he's making the game fair by not using assists. I still have a chance to beat him.

Most cases you can really tell if the other guy is trying to show off, or genuinely trying to give you a fair go at 1v1.  If they do stupid shit like dash around, use the taunt, then it's obvious they aren't taking you seriously.


Another unspoken rule I always follow is, when the opposing team has juggernaut in their team, I always let them powerup at the beginning and tap out. It just makes things more interesting (since juggy has a hard time vs some top tiers). But then again, ben is the only one who starts with juggy.  Basically, if you start with juggy, I'll know you wanna power up and tag out.  If you don't, then nevermind.


Flux, aren't we aucklanders something weird? 

[fluxcore]

I see gaurd breaks as a flaw in the game. And to continuosly exploit such a flaw isn't really a good habbit to get into. Sure, we can't ignore the fact that it's there, and those flaws are exploited in tournaments, but for casual matches against friends? It's a bit much isn't it?  Also to newbies.   They will see gaurdbreaks and get put off thinking "Oh, this game is so cheap, there's nothing I can do to defend myself from gaurdbreaks".  MVC2 is not a very common console game. People can't really go home and practise, they only have the arcades. And it's plenty damn hard to practise when you play against guys on a higher level who don't give you a fighting chance.  When you are put under pressure, and you are new to a game, you can sometimes forget what you "practised", cause you're constantly blocking.

Well, there is sometimes something you can do against guard breaks... although I'll admit it's pretty newbie-unfriendly. And while MvC2 isn't really purchasable, I don't agree it's hard to get for console - anyone into fighters with a DC is almost guaranteed to have it, and there's a competent port on ps2 which you can swap magic. I'd estimate that 99% of my play time has been on console, although that does have something to do with lack of arcade opposition. Anyone I met at the arcade who was decent I'd organise to play on console anyway - just plain economics I guess some people aren't as fanatical as me to get sticks, but again, if you aren't willing to do what it takes to practice, you can't really complain...

I guess this all depends on how you look at the situation. If you deliberately play 1v1 when you're clearly winning, then he might think:

1)  This guy is completely trying to mock me. He's not taking me seriously, and is trying to show off.
2)  Oh, he's making the game fair by not using assists. I still have a chance to beat him.

Ahh, okay, I misread - I thought you meant losing your chars on purpose, rather than not using assists. I understand the sentiment but still don't know whether I would do it - I'd only feel accomplished if I beat both opponent characters being used normally.
EDIT: What I mean is that if I only had 1 char vs the opponent's 2, I would be disappointed if I won after he handicapped himself.

Another unspoken rule I always follow is, when the opposing team has juggernaut in their team, I always let them powerup at the beginning and tap out. It just makes things more interesting (since juggy has a hard time vs some top tiers). But then again, ben is the only one who starts with juggy.  Basically, if you start with juggy, I'll know you wanna power up and tag out.  If you don't, then nevermind.

So Juggernaut glitch is fine, but guard breaks aren't?
I guess if someone was using low tier and I challenged, I would use at least somewhat low tier against them - but if someone challenged my top tier with low tier, I wouldn't cut them slack for deliberately choosing a weaker team. Personally I want to play the game to the fullest, with glitches and all, and want the opponent to do the same - if they choose not to then that's their choice, so they had better earn the juggs power up just like mike z has to - it's just part of the team dynamics.

Flux, aren't we aucklanders something weird? 

No doubt about that, and didn't need this discussion to show that

--flux

[Coddfish]

Aucklanders are wierd enough to set up and keep running a very nice arcade in a time where arcades are on their way to extinction.
We're weird, but in a good way.


Like I've said before, I don't know much about Marvel, so I don't know how broken things like Guard Breaks are.
I guess if I was playing casually, and in fact, probably even in tournament play, I wouldn't go out of my way to abuse that. However, this isn't to say I wouldn't use it - I just wouldn't use it unless I need to.

With things like fighting 1v1, the best way to avoid having no Assists is to not let your characters die in the first place


Unfortunately though, with the fighting game scene the way it is, we also can't afford to scare any potential newcomers away. I wish we could just say "if he can't cope we don't want him in the scene", but we just don't have people flocking in to play fighters. Sad. but true =/
As much as I respect playing any and every match like a tournament final, it just doesn't work until everybody reads and understands David Sirlin before they hit the arcades

[samurai black]

I see gaurd breaks as a flaw in the game. And to continuosly exploit such a flaw isn't really a good habbit to get into. Sure, we can't ignore the fact that it's there, and those flaws are exploited in tournaments, but for casual matches against friends? It's a bit much isn't it?  Also to newbies.   They will see gaurdbreaks and get put off thinking "Oh, this game is so cheap, there's nothing I can do to defend myself from gaurdbreaks".

it all depends on how the match is proceeding. if its pretty fierce, then i don't really see a problem with using everything they have at their disposal. especially if theyre down to their last character. and most newbs won't even realise theyve been guard broken. they'll just see themselves dying and wonder wtf is going on.

I dunno, depends if there's someone else around I guess. Sometimes it's worth smashing them just to get them off the machine

ive picked on a few bullies >_> most of the time its someone beating on some little kid and being an allround cock. tis a great time to use juggernaut

Most cases you can really tell if the other guy is trying to show off, or genuinely trying to give you a fair go at 1v1.  If they do stupid shit like dash around, use the taunt, then it's obvious they aren't taking you seriously.

i really like playing mike. he plays to win, but its always flashy. he's always looking for the most interesting way to kill you with mags

they had better earn the juggs power up just like mike z has to

comeback headcrushes are awesome and depressing. i made a comeback against hoi once, with glitched juggy, and in the next game he retaliated by doing the fastest ROM ive ever seen

[Ryan]

I think if you play against someone like Simon, who has almost perfected the flaws of gaurdbreak, you'll learn to appreciate it when someone doesn't gaurd break you.

I think for the most of us auckland players, we're all so friendly with each other, cause we don't take it so seriously. We're just out for some fun during casual matches.

The day we all start to whore the glitches during casuals... is when the auckland MVC2 scene will turn into the USA MVC2 scene... lots of arguments and non-friendlyness, abuse and complaints. With very rare sights of good sportsmanship every once in a while.

I see where you're coming from Flux, but I don't think I could play to my fullest at every game.  Maybe this is one of my limits, as to why I can't seem to control MSP as well as I used to. Maybe my urge to kill is gone    Maybe it's time to use Dan Hibiki?

I noticed last time, that the more I wanted to win, and the more that I wanted to completely destroy my opponent.... the worse I felt if I had lost. That's why I don't get so serious anymore I guess.

It's good that we all discuss our views on what is generally acceptable behaviour in MVC2. Varying opinions, but that's really good, cause we can all see it from another perspective.

[fluxcore]

My view is that I don't really play to beat the opponent - though that is nice and I guess the goal - I play to do the best that I can, with everything at my disposal. I'm not some execution fiend that hits everything all the time, nor am I some guy who is all about competition and can't have fun unless I'm winning. I get frustrated only when I let myself down, and as I say, I actually am more likely to stop playing if the opponent goes easy on me or throws me rounds - just because I don't feel like I'm actually accomplishing something.

I'm sure a lot of my attitude comes from lack of competition - so when I actually encounter some I really want to make the best of it. But then again, I hear some of your talk as analogue to "no throws" or "don't touch them when dizzy" in SF2 because people can't work out how to get around/avoid the situation - which I think is such horse shit.

--flux

[Eddy_COMBO]

I'm sure a lot of my attitude comes from lack of competition - so when I actually encounter some I really want to make the best of it. But then again, I hear some of your talk as analogue to "no throws" or "don't touch them when dizzy" in SF2 because people can't work out how to get around/avoid the situation - which I think is such horse shit.

--flux

Well I understand you there bro in terms of lack of compition so you'll want to benefit from this as much as possible ehh. In Tekken I really dont mind givin seconds I love challenges and if I lose at least I know I still have someone to challenge which is all good with me. Also if you give me seconds I'll gladly give you the match if it got down to the last bit of health ehh. Well I haven't fully understood the Mechanics of MVC2 it doesn't bother me if my opp is jus overpowerin me ehh. So yea by all means Guard Break or any other cheap sh_t go for it jus dont cry when you see

SHINKI SHOOOOOO---RYUUUUU---KENNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!! wit Ryu as your doom lol

I dont mind if you go easy on me ehhh i mean im a scrub what can I do lol. But I wont take any sh_t like Tauntin ehhh. I mean if you wanna do that sh_t you can jus play an Taunt the CPU then lmao....


The SF dizzy thing hahaha LOL down at our arcade out West that was a known rule for SF:Alpha 3 to some except me lol. I mean what you cant escape, dont get hit then lol

[fluxcore]

There's also the point that you can't really arbitrarily decide what to and what not to allow - Is using Mags inf acceptable? Most would say yes. How about crouch cancel infinites in Alpha 3? I imagine a lot more people would say no - and for what reason? It's boring? How about Iron Man inf then? Hard to get a more brain-dead inf than that, the opponent can't do anything unless IM screws up. If he doesn't, inf to corner, proton cannon, death (and worse, if people aren't arbitrarily banning guard breaks, because for some reason they are worse than infinites).
I fail to see A3 CC infs as much worse than that - and yet it's the MAIN THRUST of Iron Man's offense. May as well also say "No AHVBx3 in casual - only use it once" ... and then what's the point? It's just this gay halfassed game which you've nerfed because you don't want to deal with everything all the time.

There's a similar situation in KoF XI where people falling in from the side of the screen can't block until they hit the ground - so you can do grab supers on them for free (in the case of my main, Adelheid, that means free LDM for 50% life when a new char comes in). Is it cheap? I suppose - and maybe in the arcade where you're paying I wouldn't do it, but fucked if I won't in casuals otherwise.

Again, I guess it comes down to the 'arcade competition' aspect - which I don't have, so don't really consider. Why don't you guys get together and play on console more often, btw? Would be a lot cheaper and then you wouldn't have to come up with these silly constraints.

--flux

[Ryan]

Whoa, calm down there flux, don't have to get so excited.  I'm not trying to create rules for things you should and shouldn't do. I'm not trying to tell you what you can and can't do. And i'm not telling you how you should play your game.

I'm just trying to discuss how we should look at the situation before we go all out.  If everyone else feels the opposite, then I'll just return to my old style of playing, which is to fight all out. If that's what you guys expect of me, then that's how I'll play. I just wanted to get out of MSP for a while and play some not-so-hardout teams.

A few of the regulars, we don't normally go all out in our matches.  I found that I had way more fun, than playing against someone like Simon who won't give you a chance.  The "fun" matches still give you a lot of pressure and make you fight at your best, but in a different style.

And for Mags infinite, it's fine if you want to build up meter, or mix it up with resets. But to take half life off by infinite is just lame, and very boring for the other person.   Ironmans infinite is different, because it takes more skill to setup the infinite, and it's his main advantage. So I say, if you get 'em in an Ironman infinite, you probably deserve it (unless it's a simple setup like psylock assist)

I don't have any problem playing the game as it is. I'm quite happy to go all out in everygame.

[Coddfish]

I guess its up to the people playing, really. If handicapping oneself makes it more fun, then by all means go for it. And like flux said, its probably for the best when you're paying.
I just look at it and see the "easy way out" - "soft" banning something instead of finding ways around it.
And when it comes to tournaments, people are going to use whatever's available, because they want to win, they want he prize money.
And I'd rather know how to deal with my opponents cheap tactics, because I've faced them so much in casuals and figured out how to beat them, than to suddenly get beasted because I've never had to deal with it before.

Of course, not everyone is interested in being the best player in the world, and if its more fun the other way then run with it.

But when you see a longhaired, pasty white boy with (most likely) a heavy metal music tee of some sort, then you best bring all your guard breaks and infinites back into the game