Tier List for SFIV

[moose!]

Posting new tier list in thread for easy access:
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/


PS. 4/6 isn't a bad matchup.

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

4/6 isnt terrible, but its still a noticable disadvantage.

[Skullator]

TIER LISTS LOL!!!!

LOL!!! RYU AND CHUN 5-5 ON CERTAIN TIER LISTS!!!!
Find me the youtube where Nuki \ Nemo defeats daigo. I dare you.

FYI- Japan had 2 Hero class Chun Li's. (Compare that to Sagat, Ryu, Gouki, Boxer if you like )
Nuki- quit the game after a negative result at SBO while partnered with Daigo.
Nemo- did a first to 20 money match with Japans second best Sagat, and after the score reached 16-0 he walked over to the Arcades admin area and requested his game card be deleted. Apparently the Saga made Nemo look like an amateur for attempting his mix ups constantly, and Nemo just finally decided all the time he spent developing the Chun Li character was a waste, since characters like Sagat existed in this game. Hours after this, Nemo deleted his blog which was my source of information on Chun's option selects..
This is all eye witness accounts taken from 2ch.. and direct translations from Nemo's blog hours before he deleted it (He said he quit to get married, which I would say is also part of the reason)

Now, give me a metaphor regarding mountains and training to attempt to justify why Nuki and Nemo are bad players for not doing consistently well against Japanese shoto's.
(Hard mode: Try to do it withou maining S-Tier while doing so! Lol @ Ryu's and Sagats telling mid tier how to think! GET ON MY LEVEL GUYS YOU SUCK!!)

Guess what, you'll be wrong and history and the best players in the world will continue to govern facts.

[Skullator]

Thanks mods for the topic edit, I'm so ready for this.

I'm honest to god sick and tired of the high tier on this forum telling everyone else how to think, and blatantly trolling or just being oblivious to HOW MUCH HARDER the game is for certain characters.
Bottom line- It is not good for the development and growth of low tier \ mid tier players in this country.
You have to admit how bullshit some things are, and help them work around it.
What makes anything bullshit you ask? My attacks you can punish on reaction, yours require baiting as they are instantaneous, invincible to grounded melee, and trade to meterless ultra.
Ok so bait more... too bad Ryu has 50% throw or SRK game too huh?
Real shame Chun's ultra doesn't juggle mid screen or against the entire cast in the corner corrrectly too... but that's just a coincidence. (Fixed in Super, but that's HUGE BUFF because it's not broken at the moment!!!!!!)

Please, I need somebody to try prove me wrong.

LOOK AT HOW BAD I AM AT THIS GAME BY THE WAY.. I LACK TRAINING!!!!

I could do this all day.

Oh and Moose, when I was in Welly I held your words on Third Strike as if they were the law, you know why? Because wellington was the only area in NZ with a thoroughly active playerbase, so the only ones capable of making any fair calls.
Respect the fact that Wellington is at least 12 months behind on matchups due to Third Strike being the game of choice, all Spectating \ Overseas events aside.

[zos'la]

I use Chun,
I barely lose to Sagats, even comparing my Chun to the few top AU Sagats....
Maybe at a higherly lvl gameplay you may see the differences but our level I don't think its really the key of the matchup, but more of how you play.

[Skullator]

I use Chun,
I barely lose to Sagats, even comparing my Chun to the few top AU Sagats....
Maybe at a higherly lvl gameplay you may see the differences but our level I don't think its really the key of the matchup, but more of how you play.

Sorry Andy, but at the 2v2 yesterday which had a 1 character rule and double stacking allowed-
You picked Ryu, and you double stacked 2 Ryu's on your team, and needless to say your skills with Chun\Sakura\Cammy didn't help you.
Futhermore, you agree to double stacking being quote "A bit lame" and only included it because quote "Our community is not strong enough" yet.. I didn't see any other double stacked teams yesterday? Thoughts?

Execution is one thing, match ups are entirely another, you can say you use Chun, and you do very well I might add.. which is all well and fine. But the fact that you do not choose to pick her against the countries top players and feel more comfortable double stacking the two best Ryu's in the country on your team when it counts is what actually matters. (Ryu's are the matchups you know REALLY well, right?)

I don't learn anything from your chun, because you don't pick her when it counts, if you get what I mean?
As far as I am concerned, now that Coldfire has picked up Viper I am the only Chun mainer left in this country who turns up to events..

No offense bro, you know I love you. But you are missing my point- This game is match up driven first, then execution driven second.
And I'll take Japan's facts over New Zealand's opinions any day of the week..

And through it all Andy, when I lose to you (Which is often since we are training buddies on PC) do I sulk and cry about bad match ups? Hell no, I congratulate you on playing at the level you do. I have a job to do and that is not complain about my own lack of ability, it is to improve by any means possible, and I have to look overseas to accomplish that as only an S-tier chun (Aesop83, Nuki, Nemo, MagnetoManiac, Y24) can actually help level up my Chun's play.
Of course, through playing each other, I do increase my knowledge in the individual match up, but forgive me for being a little bit bored that particular match =P!

You can say that our playerbase is weak.. I would agree.
But if all you choose to do about it is allow doublestacking at your events.. How are you fixing the problem at all?
Japanese players are known for rapidly spreading new information via message boards \ streamed events.
USA's coasts are known for backing each other, of course the rivalry between coasts divides them a bit.
Australia's player base is very tight knit, and very interested on teaching weaker players how to improve.
New Zealand's... Well we pretend S-tier isn't real and double stack Ryu's in our own events... SIGH!

BUT WE CAN FIX THAT! Just have to drop the ego's.... in my honest opinion. Lobbies will help..

[[NIUE] B1ackstar Ninja]

I use Chun,
I barely lose to Sagats, even comparing my Chun to the few top AU Sagats....
Maybe at a higherly lvl gameplay you may see the differences but our level I don't think its really the key of the matchup, but more of how you play.

woah this topic is gunna be too awesome !!!! nice work mod ninjas !!!!!
so......
Have to say I kinda agree with andy here .

At the level we are playing at , the character selection doesnt really lay as much of a factor compared to how you play .
Sure if I played ryu or sagat I MIGHT win a few more matches than I do at the mo , but I certinatly dont think id be rocking in the finals with them just because I was using a A rank character .
Its definately my spacing/tournament nerves/execution that prevents me at the mo from getting further in tournys at the mo , and im hoping the ranbats will help me on all those points .


Pretty sure the guys like andy hue ben simon  kevin etc could rock any character they wanted and get them into top 8 no probs because they have a better understanding of how the game works and how it should be played .
They are top players for a reason and its not cause theyre using the best character.
I know those 5 guys above can use at least 6 different characters to a level well above what most of us on here are at .
We just got practise more with them and against other good players to level up .

And you cant really complain about mashing shoryukens through your block strings when your constantly mashing lightning legs when your in a block string yourself .
Its exactley the same mentallity as the ryu/ken/akuma/sagat mashing the dp  but its the chun mashing the lightning legs

Just a different perspective for you to consider .

[Skullator]

I will reply to this part-

And you cant really complain about mashing shoryukens through your block strings when your constantly mashing lightning legs when your in a block string yourself .
Its exactley the same mentallity as the ryu/ken/akuma/sagat mashing the dp  but its the chun mashing the lightning leg

Mashing lightning legs in block strings? Excuse me do you mean option select crouching short\throw tech (to avoid andys constant throw mixups) if option select = short + if it hit confirms link to EX legs? If block comes out, attempt block string mix up or tick throw?
Count the number of times my Chun Li's lightning legs came out without hit confirmation (it got out of ranged once after two hit confirmed shorts.., but surely.. Not once do I break into random legs either during or after a block string ends? I would much rather stuff a block string with her 3 frame start up crouching lp.. Unless perhaps I'm losing a round by 80-90%.. Then I could see it happening as a form of "Random launch -> ultra" kind of thing. You know, like every shoto does during every block string.
Lightning legs and option select short are different things.. what I do is hit confirm the first crouching short... THEN MASH THAT INTO HIT CONFIRMED EX-LEGS! (please tell me how you can perform hundred hand slap \ legs \ electricity without Mashing\Sliding by the way? Rofl.. It's 5 imputs required within a time period with the 5th one governing what version comes out..... )  since you play Ken I can see why you would think that though.

And by the way, Ryu can punish EX legs on start up ! Or even throw chun out of it!!!! Woohoo!!!!

Edit: I will add in some more facts, as some people seem to question my reasoning.

Yesterday Andy told me "Chun has an Anti Air too" now, we all know this can't mean EX-SBK , because that move is in a basket of it's own.. riddled with neutral jump problems when used on wake, and has many ways of being "Stuffed" entirely given priority \ positional requriement issues. Let us not forget it requires a down charge, which prevents it from being used against neutral jump mixups (Gotta block high first...)
No no.. to the informed, we know Andy means Chun's neutral standing mk, fair fierce, and far HK.
The problem with this statement.. is that he seriously just compared three of Chun's heavily positional requirement based normals, with very meh priorities, to Ryu's Shoryuken.

Detail analysis of the problem, SRK vs Chun's AA's (Her AA being normals, not EX draining EXSBK for the reasons stated above)
Invincibility frames versus potentially leaving yourself entirely open.
SRK is instant, and EX cancel confirmable to either huge damage or complete safety.
Chuns low priority AA will trade unless you find yourself in the exact right spot \ your opponent jumps incorrectly
My AA doesn't trade into meterless ultra.
My AA doesn't have melee invincibility frames.
My AA doesn't build meter.

Now, what did chun have in third strike that made her any good? Pokes.
- What happens in SFIV if you get poke hungry? Focus attacks.
- Who has one of the better focus attack in the game? Ryu.
- What happends if Ryu lands a focus? We all know how that goes.

Ok ok.. So her AA is shit, and her pokes are risky at best due to constant focus bait, at least she has a great anti projectile ultra right?!?!
- Don't throw fireballs when she's loaded, problem solved.

Ok ok.. but at least Hazanshu owns.
- Chuns best special? Toss up, Hazanshu or EX SBK, go with hazanshu since it's meterless and doesn't require a down charge.
- Ryu's best special? Toss up, SRK or Tatsu or Hadouken, lets go with SRK as it's also physical melee.
- What happens when chun throws out a Hazanshu? She opens herself up to about every single attack in the game briefly, if opponent misses punish, combo\mixups\resets.
- What happens when Ryu throws out a SRK? He becomes invincible to grounded melee, and his attack begins instantly. Opponent can't react to SRK, have to try bait them out instead of punish on reaction, which leads to ryu's Vortex, did I mention that instead of SRK'ing you on the ground, he also has a 50% chance of throwing you every time?
Chuns Hazashu, let us not forget, doesnt have armor breaking properties by default, hence is one of the simplest focus baits in the game.

Just trying to futher my point here.. hope it helps.

[zos'la]

I've already asked the community if they wanted to allow same chars in the same team, my response from everyone was our community was too small to do so.
THATS what i was told and so I made the decision to allow so. I wouldn't agree i myself saying me and Hue are the best Ryus in the country tbh as I believe there are far more people out there with potentials beyond us and we didn't have to go both Ryu but I think many complain if Hue went Sagat. So to be fare I have no way in breaking the rules that was voted by the community, like wise me pausing the game and getting 3rd place instead of at least second place, I said rules are rules and I obey them even though in was in between a Giefs ultra which many said it didn't matter as it didn't affect any combos and such, but I took the lost and did what I believe was correct.

I just believe you just have to improve urself more if you want to be at the top, you need to interact with each player, learn from each other and exchange knowledge. you realise Kevin, Hue, Cody, Simonfish, Richard, Ben and myself, we all share one thing in common, we share our knowledge of our char, our experiences with matchups, laughter which ends up to be building a bond in friendship. That is the key in improving, I can see you improve heaps since we last played and even iMagneto said so but you don't understand that when you improve, others will also.

Don't take this as an offence as I am just trying to discuss many of the reasons behind all these.

[Skullator]

I've already asked the community if they wanted to allow same chars in the same team, my response from everyone was our community was too small to do so.
THATS what i was told and so I made the decision to allow so. I wouldn't agree i myself saying me and Hue are the best Ryus in the country tbh as I believe there are far more people out there with potentials beyond us and we didn't have to go both Ryu but I think many complain if Hue went Sagat. So to be fare I have no way in breaking the rules that was voted by the community, like wise me pausing the game and getting 3rd place instead of at least second place, I said rules are rules and I obey them even though in was in between a Giefs ultra which many said it didn't matter as it didn't affect any combos and such, but I took the lost and did what I believe was correct.

Of course you didn't break the rules.. you organized the awesome event and that is why I am thankful!
But it is your constant justification of low tier \ mid tier being fine or just "tier crap" that is the main point of this topic.

But what the hell? Do you actually think you and Hue are not the best Ryu's in the country and that people who only play online \ aren't involved in a community like this \ don't watch overseas stuff can be anywhere near your level? I would disagree.. being active is what improves you.

Oh and in your edit you're right.. I don't understand that by my own improvement other people just magically level up along side me... I live in Tauranga.

[fluxcore]

we all share one thing in common, we share our knowledge of our char, our experiences with matchups, laughter which ends up to be building a bond in friendship. That is the key in improving

I should make this the motto of NZism. It concerns me to see lots of bickering about what is, in reality, pretty trivial and mundane stuff like tiers. While it can be entertaining, it doesn't really further the community, and if anything probably splinters it. We're all in this together and should really see past all the crap, with the aim of helping each other.

I never intended NZism to be a strategy sharing site, since that is really the domain of places like SRK and TZ, but if people think it would be useful to have a forum for that kind of thing I can put one up. Maybe it would allow a bit more sharing of ideas?

[Skullator]

I should make this the motto of NZism. It concerns me to see lots of bickering about what is, in reality, pretty trivial and mundane stuff like tiers. While it can be entertaining, it doesn't really further the community, and if anything probably splinters it. We're all in this together and should really see past all the crap, with the aim of helping each other.

I never intended NZism to be a strategy sharing site, since that is really the domain of places like SRK and TZ, but if people think it would be useful to have a forum for that kind of thing I can put one up. Maybe it would allow a bit more sharing of ideas?

I just think it helps bring people closer together.. definitely.. I'm not saying it would be a guaranteed successful sub forum... but I think it would be beneficial.
I mean genuinely improving newer or less confident players encourages them to turn up to events such as nats and yesterdays 2v2 tourny yea? People don't wanna go if they think they are garbage, won't do very well, learn anything, or have that much fun watching others play..
That's why I always take time out on PS3 and PC to just help people download Chun.. or give them match up pointers via PM \ voice chat.

Like.. sure we have platform forums.. but then xboxers dont really converse with ps3's.
Sure we have SFIV topic, but we both know the benefits of subforum vs single topic.

It's definitely bickering by the way, but I never usually do it EVEN WHEN being called out. Today I'm just in a good mood or something, and am thoroughly enjoying myself here!
Of course, this is all moot points.. with super on the horizon.. just sayin'

[geneterror]

I never intended NZism to be a strategy sharing site, since that is really the domain of places like SRK and TZ, but if people think it would be useful to have a forum for that kind of thing I can put one up. Maybe it would allow a bit more sharing of ideas?

Yes please! I don't frequent sites like SRK that much, it eats up to much of my time. I would rather talk specifics here while chillin' with the NZism crew!

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

This topic is awesome.

Tiers exist. They matter. Period.

But theyre not obstacles that cant be overcome. YES low tier players have a harder time winning stuff, and YES it means they have to put in more effort to get better results than others. But its pretty trival. If youre playing a low tier character, you know what youre in for. Youre allowed to complain when you spend a whole match rocking Sagat/Gief, and then getting one-shot and losing, but its not by any means an excuse. Its your own fault you got hit by that shit anyway.

If you were better, you would be winning more. (Not directing this straight at anybody, its just a mantra that can be applied to the game in general.)

Lower tiers need MORE practice, and MORE experience, and a hell of a lot MORE effort to get the same results as top tier stuff. ESPECIALLY in SF4, where the top 2 characters are shit easy to play compared to the rest of the cast.

I don't care what anyone says about 'omg ryu/sagat are hard to play' because im sure they have difficult elements, but they are, without any doubt, easier to get results with than the rest of the cast. Even in their deepest possible gameplay, they are still easier. If you're denying this, youre kidding yourself. But its stupid and trivial to complain about it. If it bothers you that much, then use them. 

I play Fuerte. Im just about as bad off as it gets. I personaly dont give 2 shits. It may suck, but thats how the game is.

Handle it, or play something else. These are our options. I suggest we all pick one.

[Skullator]

^ Truth

Just think how boring the game would be if everyone was smart enough to pick Ryu eh?
Respect your mid\low tiers.. they are what keep things from turning stagnant.. Help them grow... and that doesn't always mean Metsu them 50 times in a row until they imporve.