Pre-release Super Street Fighter IV details

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

Footsies will dominate the tiers i reckon. But neither rose nor sakura have TERRIBLE footsies. Rose in particular i think deserves to be higher.

I especially think that Hakan could be really hit or miss. It's going to take quite a while before we get an accurate representation of him in any ranking chart.

[Chuckk]

I think overall the matchup chart is more important than the tier list, even if it is wrong.
It probably is wrong, in fact, but it gives a place to start as more information comes to light.
And at the end of the day the list only reflects the characters and information at the time of it's making. As long as you keep that in mind while looking it, it's IMO a positive thing to have around.

As for reading too much into it, I wouldn't bother. But more use as a starting point for discussion on every matchup and how to improve or judge what matchups are better or worse than are currently represented.

[DVS]

I think they need to split match up and tier listing depending on what Ultra has been selected -maybe even having two lists for each......just taking an example of Ryu with U1....there are far more opportunities to link into this Ultra which I think is more dangerous than U2...even tho it is more damaging....Rose with U2 is also in my opinion more dangerous than with U1...as U2 has far more attacking & defence options....just my two cents

I also think Rose and Sakura should be higher in the listing from iplaywinner.......Dhalsim & Dudley should also be higher up...

I suppose at the end of the day it's the player that makes the difference....I've played a few people lately that know the 'in's' & 'out's' with their chosen main and are really challenging to play against....

[HoneyBadger]

Why would you not use the better ultra for the matchup? Obviously if the ultra just depends on playstyle then it's about the player learning the ins and outs. Waste of time to make a whole bunch of matchups based on what ultra.

[[NIUE] weazzyefff]

Yeah i keep getting owned by all these new ultra's. Cant you block Abel's if it's charged fully?

[samurai black]

i thought breathless was a grab

[[NIUE] weazzyefff]

i thought breathless was a grab

Damn, bloody must be mate.

[DVS]

Why would you not use the better ultra for the matchup? Obviously if the ultra just depends on playstyle then it's about the player learning the ins and outs. Waste of time to make a whole bunch of matchups based on what ultra.

Depends what you mean by 'better' -more damaging or usage in more circumstances....Dudley's U2 can be combo'd into in many situations giving the player more chance to use it, his U1 can be good but....if a players watching for it it can avoided much easier......I'd say U2 Dudley would be a higher tier, of course his fundamental play style, footies, dash etc...hasn't changed what I'm trying to get at is most characters have one dominating Ultra which is stronger or 'useful' in most match ups...from what I've been able to figure out...

Anyone else got an opinion on this concept?

[massi4h]

What? You use the best ultra for what situation you are in. If you're Dudley you pick U2 vs most characters and U1 is really good for shutting down fireball characters.

I would base Ryu matchups off U1, while Rufus matchups off U2.

Why make a matchup saying 6-4 for 1 ultra and 5-5 for the other. You're obviously just gonna use the 6-4 Ultra when playing that character. You aren't stuck to only ever using 1 ultra when you main a character.

[CrazyMobius]

However that would mean that there would have to be a clear consensus on which is the better ultra in the matchup.

The simplest way is to take the ultra out of the equation, however that isn't giving an accurate representation of the character's strengths.

How did they explain it with 3S?

[DVS]

What? You use the best ultra for what situation you are in. If you're Dudley you pick U2 vs most characters and U1 is really good for shutting down fireball characters.

I would base Ryu matchups off U1, while Rufus matchups off U2.

Why make a matchup saying 6-4 for 1 ultra and 5-5 for the other. You're obviously just gonna use the 6-4 Ultra when playing that character. You aren't stuck to only ever using 1 ultra when you main a character.

Yea of course, it's quite clear cut with Dudley....but if it's online it's blind select...which would stop the player from picking an Ultra which counters a play style say "U1 for shotos"......Dudley has two really useful Ultras- maybe both of them come into consideration when allocating tier ranking instead of splitting it out? Dhalsim & Chung Li have two really useful Ultras as well......I don't find Ken or Ryu's U2 very useful....it's more flashy than practical......perhaps leaving Ultras out of tiers is the way to go like Mobius reckons...but he's also right some characters are much stronger with a particular Ultra......I haven't played much 3S but I did hear someone mention a while back that it was clearer which super art was the strongest.....

Of course if it's your main character you'd have figured out which ultra best suits your playstyle....but knowing both really well and being able to adjust between matches would be the best situation....

It will take a few months to get a clearer tier indication....

[HoneyBadger]

3S was exactly what I said earlier in the thread. It's certainly more vague in 3S because you have to consider things like how much meter you'll be using and how much the damage and versatility comes with the super over your EX moves. Taking ultras out of the equation obviously doesn't give a fair representation, it's like making a tier list saying "NO FIREBALLZ ALLOWED"

On a side note, Ken's U2 is fucking boss and I can't really see many matchups where you'd rather SHINROOOOOOOOKENNNNN over the top tier footsie hit confirm shit of U2

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

The tier list should reflect the characters at high level play. Theres no point having a low-level play tier list, or a 'what-if-i-want-to-use-the-lol-ultra' tier list. At high levels, you use the best ultra for the matchup in general, so the tier list should reflect it. Both characters in the match should be judged at their absolute best.

Theres no two ways about this.

[DVS]

3S was exactly what I said earlier in the thread. It's certainly more vague in 3S because you have to consider things like how much meter you'll be using and how much the damage and versatility comes with the super over your EX moves. Taking ultras out of the equation obviously doesn't give a fair representation, it's like making a tier list saying "NO FIREBALLZ ALLOWED"

On a side note, Ken's U2 is fucking boss and I can't really see many matchups where you'd rather SHINROOOOOOOOKENNNNN over the top tier footsie hit confirm shit of U2

Hmmm, yea there is a lot to take into consideration with EX moves.....but I think the new Ultras have added or taken value away from some characters and should also have an effect on tier.....tournament results  must be gauging current tier but thats probably due to usage of certain characters and under usage of others....like a success rate of the mostly used characters more than a more accurate gauge...

From what I've seen from Ken's U2 unless it's hit confirmed into a combo....you can just duck it, I've clash hit him out of it on reaction a few times ....Buda & Blackstar didn't speak to highly of it....but I have seen a few combo displays online that were pretty choice.....

[HoneyBadger]

From what I've seen from Ken's U2 unless it's hit confirmed into a combo you can just duck it

Wow, sorry Rufus U1, Ryu U1, Sagat U1. I can just block all your ultras, I can also jump over Ryu's and Rufus' on reaction. Clearly terrible ultras.