NZ SF scene - Your thoughts.

[Skullator]

Bang, get stung.

[Cr8zyK1LL3r]

Right, that's it.

Could you guys sound any more up yourselves? You think all this drama about the setups has been specifically to give everyone but you the advantage? To even the field? To stop YOU from performing?

That's what YOU think, not what i think. I've never thought about changing the setup will make YOU have higher chance to beat us, even by 1%. And having said that, Playing on a 1s delay monitor will make no different to YOUR outcome.

Get the fuck out.

I Wonder if the majority want YOU out OR want US out of the scene. Just because you are an admin, doesn't mean you can act like a retard with 0 IQ.

GIGA is YOUR home territory. YOU guys introduced GIGA to us. YOU spend the time there regularly. There is NOTHING stopping you having MORE practice on those setups than everyone else. And now you think you're all high and mighty for WORKING OUT how to play on them? Fucking astounding.

I didn't introduce giga to you. Talking about advantage, I remember the first time we had tournament was at RVB. And that was our first time being there and we still placed tops. I wonder what happened to the "HOMETOWN ADVANTAGE". That kind of thinking clearly identify the different between a real player and a real retard.
Bring the setup you play at home 24/day and I will show YOU it doesn't make a fucking different.

Despite being better than most other players and having proved it many times you STILL want to rub people's faces in it by having "worked out" how to play on an OPTIMAL setup. And THEN feeling the need to POINT OUT that you're still better ON YOUR HOMEGROUND SETUPS. Any person with A BRAIN knows that giving a better player a setup where they can react EVEN MORE QUICKLY is NOT going to make the worse players start winning! I'm frankly amazed that people of your calibre can be SO DENSE about an issue like this.

Did I ever mention about my solution of how I overcome the lag free issue Or is it your retarded assumption ??

And yet who are the people whining about not hitting combos and LOOKING BAD on a VIDEO? Wow.

It's logical that a person who cannot perform combo will never care about hitting combos.

And no, I have NO confidence this will be the "end of the lag issue" any more than it has been the LAST 5 FUCKING TIMES YOU'VE SAID THAT. You're going to drag it out every time you lose "because of it", and now it seems everytime you "win in spite of it".

Forget about what I've said. Giving a mask to a retard doesn't change his retarding personalities.

Get some fucking humility and stop being such assholes. I'm utterly sick of your pathetic attitudes in general about these issues. None of it is about YOU. You're not that goddamn special.

Are you looking at a mirror when you said that ??

Not everyone think lowly like you. My solution is nothing more than adding strategy. Since i've already got flamed before I could start. I guess it doesn't make any different if I start now. At least It will contribute in some people's strategies and improve their gameplay next time at the tournament. So I will make a post for that now. Until someone other than YOU telling me to stop or until I think that What I'm doing actually pretty helpless to the community, then I will stop. So.... feel free to Keep the flame coming. It's pretty cold down here. ^_^

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

Yes it's better because you can react better but you are not used to it so your combo timing is off. That's corrected. It wouldn't be a problem to the OUTCOME but it will be a problem to the PERFORMANCE. Because our timing is off, it made us look like scrubs even in the Grand Final. Ask how many players right here feel like scrubs in the 3v3 compare to their normal casuals ??

Basically, What I'm saying is for a different delay setup:
the OUTCOME of the match won't change when you find the right solution to it which is pretty easy to see.
BUT the PERFORMANCE will be effected by it.

OUTCOME = Win/lose
PERFORMANCE = Combo execution, max damage combo, reset/mix up timing, etc........

And when people watch tournament clips, they don't care about the OUTCOME, they are interested in PERFORMANCE to determine that country's level.

I hope i made it clear enough ??

I totally understand where youre coming from.

However, I personally think, as i have said before, that we all just need to harden up and learn the timing for our combos on a lagless setup. Its not that hard to do. We all KNOW the speed and rhythm that we should be going at for our combos, we all just need to adjust to the different visual cues to adjust to the speed of the setup.

I personally prefer the idea of a lagless setup, just because it makes my reactionary game so much better. Timing of combos is easy to learn/re-learn, but adjusting your reaction speed is a lot more difficult.

Ultimately, if everyone gets used to a setup like this one, we will not only have impressive combos for the spectators, but equally impressive reactions, which could potentially lead to epic comebacks, awesome trades, and a hell of a lot more exciting stuff. Which will be a lot better for everyone in the long run.

Realistically, if we all play on a setup like this, for a few days, or even a week if youre slow, it wont take us very long to get used to it, and be raping people with awesome unnecessarily long combos that make the crowds dicks explode with delight in no time.

So, regarding back to the solution.

If you say : "I could have won the match", then you are wrong, it won't change the outcome unless you put a few assumptions such as : you find yourself a solution and the other players don't, but that's another scenario already.

And if you say : "I can do better than that", then you are right, you can perform way better than that on different setups. But tough luck, that's the setup designed for tournament.

@ Rorooze : I really wanted to believe it and I tried to believe it many times but I always get disappointed. Maybe "my believing" wasn't strong enough to twist the fact.

I kind of said this exact same thing in my reply to James' post earlier (might have been in the 3v3 thread), although i feel i put it a bit more eloquently.

I dont necessarily agree with the way Hue has WRITTEN his argument. The outcome of the match COULD have changed on a different setup, but it has an equal chance of NOT changing at all.

Which means i TOTALLY AGREE with Hue on the POINT he is trying to make, but i just wrote it in a different way. I also agree that you quite simply CANNOT blame the setup for a loss. And to be honest, i dont think anyone here is going to argue with that.

And if anyone does argue. Fuck you. BIRRY WONG and RICHARD UMEHALA will put the Niuean smash on you.

About the optimum solution, It's just logical stuffs combining from a few facts + a general solution. Nothing like Rocket Science really..... I guess the best way for me to explain it so that everyone can see it clearly is by looking at the different cases.

Scenario 1 - both players get effected : The fact which the setup has different timing cannot be changed. And It wouldn't effect you only, It would effect other players as well. So If u have to play against an equal level player, u are practically on the same ground because it effects both of u. So It would all come down to whoever "adjust" to it faster win OR whoever has better "strategy" win. And if u play against a worse player, most likely u still win since both of u get effected by it. So if u get -2 on ur overall performance, he would get -2 as well unless his setup at home has closer delay than urs. And that will go to Scenario 2.

Scenario 2 - only U get effected : If u play against a player who doesn't get effected by the lag less setup (In this case, a) Maybe some "less combo/1-2 frame timing relying characters" or b) people who has this setup at home) there's nothing much u can do about it since they already know the "system" better than u right from the start. And the outcome depends a lot on who knows the system better. So basically, If this player level = ur level and know the system better than u, u would lose no matter what. Or If his level is lower than urs, that means u still can beat him ONLY IF u don't depend on combo to avoid making mistakes from ur executions and depend more on "strategy".

In the end, Depend on strategy to win seems to be an optimum solution since u don't have to worry about the other player knows the system or not. Nor u need to worry about the change in the setup because It will fall back into Scenario 1 & 2.
So I worked my way backward and started to develop my strategy. The strategy I had was:

1. Relying on easy damage & basic combo where timing is "less required" (for example, for viper, I do st.heavy punch --> ex sessimic hammer instead of st. heavy punch --> feint --> blah blah....., and jump in heavy kick --> mid punch --> thunder knuckle instead of st.mid punch --> cr.mid punch, and so on.......). This way, I can still keep 80% of my damage and reduce the risk of missing combo by over 80% if we don't want to call it completely. And I think ALL the characters should have basic combos where damage is 80% as good as full-hard combos. I could be wrong in a few cases but you know what i mean.

2. Since this setup is lag less, reaction plays a very important factor compares to normal games. Which also means, Anti-air, tech throw now can be performed easier + faster = more effective. Zonning & footsies tools also benefit a lot in this case but I didn't name it here because at the moment, that is our weakness and Nobody could master it (punish sweeps like Daigo). But thanks to that, it open number 3 for me.

3. More footsies and zonning, combine with a better anti-air, this is an ultimate tool. What else, NZ levels cannot punish sweeps so feel free to stick your foot out.

4. Full damage combo or punish "will not" work as well in this case coz my timing has already been changed. PLUS, being able to execute it in once round doesn't mean i can pull it out on another rounds.

So, in general, what i did was sticking to basic combos to minimize the risk, Use more tools which benefit from lag free, and play a safe strategy. That is why in the 3 vs 3, I didn't use any fancy moves or mix-up but still did fine and processed pretty far. And you probably has already notice that I used Sessimic hammer A LOT more compare to normal games coz this is 1 of the benefit which is listed. I can keep going on and on for the whole day but I think you already understand it by now or you have already understood it before seeing the post and think what's I've said is pretty useless. But that's what I've said myself, it's all logical and easy to see stuffs.

Any more questions ?? feel free to ask. But please don't flame. I just want to help. Peace !! ^_^

This is total truth. In my match against Skullator for example, i stopped going for RSF's because i was dropping them, and just went for simple punishes like s.hk -> guac because i knew i wouldn't fuck it up. The match takes a bit longer, but you dont throw the game away because of retarded drops.

HOWEVER, you only need to do this for a little while until you are used to the setup. Once you get used to it, you can go for all the combos you like AND have easier reactions. THIS is the best way to go imo. It may take you days or weeks to get used to the setup, but when it happens, you WILL be Godlike again. Even moreso than you were before.

Lag free simply takes TIME to get used to. Once you are used to a lag free setup, your game will be BETTER than if you were playing on a laggy setup that you are also used to. This is the whole point of a lag free setup. We want people to be the BEST they can be. If youre awesome on a laggy setup, but crap on a lag free setup, then youre not able to reach your potential as a player.

You NEED to be playing on a lag free setup to become the best you can be. This is why i think everyone needs to toughen up. Stop the crying, and play with no lag until youre fucking awesome at it.

I think everyone should notice by now that the results haven't changed much at least in top 5 in different tournaments with different setups.

Anyway, back to the main topic. lag/lag free = no different AS SOON AS you find the optimum solution around it. Which I "believe" i already have and I'm not going to say it here coz I've got enough flaming already. Don't believe me ?? Think about the 3vs3.
So, If you wanna hear "my solution", come talk to me.
Done !! End of the lagging issue.

Hue...
TEACH ME BABY!!!! LOL

Actually I've also found it too^^ but we will share it once we catch up later when u come back laaa.
Sharing it here always get shit from people and flame^^.

Alan read these posts as saying "We are so good that we will beat everyone on every setup". Because, truthfully, that is how they have been presented. This is why he got annoyed. Which is understandable.

Hue in particular i think is following an intelligent way of thinking, but has just written his post in a way that hasn't gone down particularly well. This is exactly the same as 9/10 of my arguments with Andy.

Hue and Andy need to apologise for being condescending. It DOESNT MATTER whether you wanted to be or not. This is just how it was interpreted, so it requires an apology.

Alan needs to apologise for unleashing the ragepost of death. Only BIRRY WONG is allowed to unleash the ragepost of death.

Everyone needs to read my post (the one you are reading RIGHT NOW) again. If i do say so myself, its choc full of me being a genuinely awesome dude, and having a godlike outlook on this entire incident. Not to yank my own chain or anything, but for someone who gets in as many arguments as i do, i would make a fucking amazing psychologist.

Two words bitches.

BIRRY WONG

[fluxcore]

I Wonder if the majority want YOU out OR want US out of the scene. Just because you are an admin, doesn't mean you can act like a retard with 0 IQ.

I think you'll find no-one wants ANYONE out of the community. But likewise no-one wants a community whose decisions are made solely to try to make the players near the top look as good as possible at the expense of actually having a better platform for promoting good play.

Talking about advantage, I remember the first time we had tournament was at RVB. And that was our first time being there and we still placed tops. I wonder what happened to the "HOMETOWN ADVANTAGE". That kind of thinking clearly identify the different between a real player and a real retard.
Bring the setup you play at home 24/day and I will show YOU it doesn't make a fucking different.

Yup, pretty sure no-one else had been to RVB before that either. Except probably Andy to organise things. In my last post I also said specifically that you guys ARE better than people, even on bad setups, and a good setup will only make you better in relation to other people! Therefore telling me that you'll beat me on my home setup makes no difference, I already KNOW you'd beat me because you're better! Saying stuff like that just makes you come off like a bully that has nothing other than beating people to put behind your words.

As for your strategy post on how to cope with NO LAG, yeah you do actually say some things which make me think you understand why no lag is preferable. But for some reason you hinge so strongly on this "cannot do your good combos" crutch that SERIOUSLY can be rectified with fairly limited time practicing on the setup, which as I've pointed out is something VERY EASY for you to do given your situation with GIGA. It's also not like it's online where the lag varies - that really IS hard to cope with.

[fluxcore]

Alan read these posts as saying "We are so good that we will beat everyone on every setup". Because, truthfully, that is how they have been presented. This is why he got annoyed. Which is understandable.

That's actually not quite what got me angry, since it's true that they will beat most people on whatever setup. It was more that they had to say it in such an arrogant way inferring that DESPITE this "handicap" of a lagless setup they will still prevail, and then ALSO follow up with "but we're not going to share our strategies for coping because fluxcore gets grumpy with us when we post unhelpful stuff".

On a different subject I split hue's post about his strategy for coping with the lag/lack of lag into a separate topic since it doesn't really belong here/deserves it's own thread. Bill if you could post in the other thread and copy the relevant section of your post above into it, that'd be cool

[Cr8zyK1LL3r]

I only said "bring your setup and I will show you it doesn't make a fucking different" because your post is saying: "you guys prefer a setup familiar to you so that you can beast people out". So my reply was : "Just because you use your setup, doesn't mean you can beast people out. And If you can beast people out, you don't need to go for similar setup to begin with. Don't believe me ?? Bring your setup and I will show you".

SO my main point from the first day i made a post about the setup has always been :"I wasn't fucking going for the OUTCOME right from the beginning, what I'm talking here is PERFORMANCE, and If you think i'm worrying about the Outcome then you are all wrong because the OUTCOME has always been identical. I'm not smacking shit into people face, OPEN YOUR EYES AND LOOK AT THE DAMN FACTS IN THE TOURNAMENT RESULTS"

And I will tell you this, THE OUTCOME HAS NEVER EVER BEEN my purpose for attending tournament. I simply wanted to entertain/enjoy AND PERFORM WELL at tournaments. The 3vs3 was the exception BECAUSE Cody gave up his game for me to play. So I had to put the OUTCOME in front of PERFORMANCE otherwise How am I going to feel after the tournament when I took my friend's spot and lose??

[Cr8zyK1LL3r]

Enough of this, I'm out this forum for temporary.

[fluxcore]

SO my main point from the first day i made a post about the setup has always been :"I wasn't fucking going for the OUTCOME right from the beginning, what I'm talking here is PERFORMANCE,

And I will tell you this, THE OUTCOME HAS NEVER EVER BEEN my purpose for attending tournament. I simply wanted to entertain/enjoy AND PERFORM WELL

Awesome, so you agree that lagless setup is better then, and you just will practice a bit on it to get used to it so your combos are fine AND you can react even more godlike than you're used to.

Don't know quite why you went through that whole "want a worse performing setup" bit though, that threw me for a loop for a while.

[Cr8zyK1LL3r]

Enough of this, I'm out this forum for temporary.

I'm back. ^_^

Lag free simply takes TIME to get used to. Once you are used to a lag free setup, your game will be BETTER than if you were playing on a laggy setup that you are also used to. This is the whole point of a lag free setup. We want people to be the BEST they can be. If youre awesome on a laggy setup, but crap on a lag free setup, then youre not able to reach your potential as a player.

author=fluxcore
Awesome, so you agree that lagless setup is better then, and you just will practice a bit on it to get used to it so your combos are fine.
Don't know quite why you went through that whole "want a worse performing setup" bit though, that threw me for a loop for a while.

I don't like the idea : "we are having tournament once every 2 months and guess what ?? We are changing the setup so that everyone will perform worse than usual, enjoy the bonus !!"

If we run lag free setup consistently before the tournament, then i can understand and I would love to play on it. However, What I've experienced so far is that the lag free setup is so special that i can only get to play it on tournament days.

About the reason WHY I still "want a worse performing setup". I have explained it already but I will explain it again with different example:

Using a $5000 stick with all 10 buttons have the perfect layout FOR THE CHAMPION OF THE ARCADE WORLD ABC, doesn't mean you can play better than your $100 stick. And guess what, A BONUS !!! You only get to use that stick & ONLY THAT STICK in tournament. Enjoy the performance and don't forget to memorize the new layout of the buttons which are designed for your 11 fingers and don't worry, once you get used to it you will become godlike. Oh, and you only have 2 matches before getting eliminated so good luck adapting to it.

That's why I'd prefer to use my $100 stick with 6 buttons designed for my 5 fingers.

[massi4h]

I think if we do get a lagless setup, we need multiple other ones to practice on.

I know as a personal problem, whenever I play on a different setup I usually take roughly half an hour before I'm warmed up and adjusted, after that I should have no problems. We're generally lucky to get 1 game before our 2 games and we're out. Guess it didn't help that at the 3v3 the casual setup (which Lenny didn't organise btw, just no-one turned it off lol) was on a different level of lag and most of us who played on it were happy with it. I spent quite a while on it though. Xlan should be sweet though where we all have all the time in the world to prepare and get used to a hopefully lagless setup and we'll see how that goes.

[Cr8zyK1LL3r]

half an hour of playing ?? that's not bad, I will see you in casuals after the tournament is over. lol

But nah, I'm not looking at Lenny when talking about these. Lenny is a great guy who did more then enough for this community could ever ask for. I do respect Lenny a lot as he has contributed a lot for the community.

I'm just shooting out my thoughts about the events as a player so I do apologize if it hit Lenny. But honestly I've never aimed at him (unless someone set head-shot hacked).

And does anyone know what setup Xlan using ?? Maybe you practice so hard for the lag free setup and on that day you go there just to find out that they use the laggy setup which You've just decided to give up.

[Skullator]

Xlan will be using whatever setups we are able to bring for the main tournament play.. So it will be up to us to keep it lag free if we want it to be.

The grand finals will no doubt be played on whatever setup they decide is good enough for their big screen \ viewing area. Maybe we can convince them grand finals should be played on lag free setup. This is of course just assuming whatever setup they intend to use isn't lag free lol.

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

I'm back. ^_^

I don't like the idea : "we are having tournament once every 2 months and guess what ?? We are changing the setup so that everyone will perform worse than usual, enjoy the bonus !!"

If we run lag free setup consistently before the tournament, then i can understand and I would love to play on it. However, What I've experienced so far is that the lag free setup is so special that i can only get to play it on tournament days.
About the reason WHY I still "want a worse performing setup". I have explained it already but I will explain it again with different example:

Using a $5000 stick with all 10 buttons have the perfect layout FOR THE CHAMPION OF THE ARCADE WORLD ABC, doesn't mean you can play better than your $100 stick. And guess what, A BONUS !!! You only get to use that stick & ONLY THAT STICK in tournament. Enjoy the performance and don't forget to memorize the new layout of the buttons which are designed for your 11 fingers and don't worry, once you get used to it you will become godlike. Oh, and you only have 2 matches before getting eliminated so good luck adapting to it.

That's why I'd prefer to use my $100 stick with 6 buttons designed for my 5 fingers.

All our Ranbats will be using lag free setups from now on from what i understand. Additionally, so will all our competitions. So for those of us that are Auckland based, you WILL be getting consistent practice on it.

You also have the option of buying a CRT to practice on before tournaments and events. I realise "Buy a new TV" is a dumb suggestion, but CRT's are cheap as on trademe, and you only need to use it for a couple of days before a tourney to get your timing sorted.

Also, I completely understand the $5000 stick example you posted. And its a totally fair comment. The difference in this case is that the lag free setup was NOT a one off. We WILL be implementing it regularly. So there will be many opportunities for Auckland based people to get used to it.

As for the rest of the country, im not sure what their situation is. Unfortunately, their only option (without regular competition) really is, as i say, dusting off an old CRT and using it to practice before a tourney. But as i say, it won't take people very long to adjust. You can play for months on a laggy TV and then after a couple of days practice with a CRT you will be fine.

Unfortunately, yes, without regular practice, you may not perform as well as you would have done on a different setup. For our competitions, ranbats, etc, we WILL be trying to give people as much practice on the lag free setup as we possibly can to eliminate this. Lag free IS the best setup to be playing on. This is a solid fact. Its just unfortunate that we didnt get it sorted when vanilla SF4 dropped. But its sorted now. THIS IS HOW WE ARE DOING IT FROM NOW ON. I highly suggest that if people want results competitively, they should make an attempt to go out of their way to learn on a lag free setup, because this is how it will be running from now on. Peoples concerns have been read, and Lenny, Alan, and everyone else UNDERSTANDS THEM, but the fact of the matter is, lag free is the standard, and that is what we are using. We will not be changing it any time soon. You dont have to change your setup at home if you dont want to. I would just recommend that a week or so before an event, you plug in your CRT and suss your timing out on that.

[fluxcore]

Put it this way, Hue.

Why should anyone cater to YOU not being able to play on a lagless setup (which as everyone is pointing out is BETTER), at the expense of people who CAN play on a lagless setup? Why is it fair to make everyone in the tournament play on a WORSE setup just so you can look better?

How do you learn to play on this setup? If you choose to ignore all the other events that will take place on it before the nationals, go to giga. Hire the setup. Practice on it. If you aren't dedicated enough to do this, then you have no right to complain about things.
If the VGA cable is the issue, maybe Lenny would lend you one.

[[NIUE] BIRRY WONG]

I think youre misinterpreting Hue a bit here Alan. He is not saying "I cant play on this so it is bad" He is just listing his personal experience and opinion. He is speaking on behalf of everybody, but is applying his own point of view to it, which i totally understand. Fact of the matter is, on the day of the 3v3, EVERYONE suffered from the same problem. Hue's argument is that he doesnt want everyone in NZ to look scrubby compared to the rest of the world. Which is fair enough.

But ultimately, (and this is the ONLY point where i feel i disagree with Hue on this tbh) we need to play on a lag free setup to ACTUALLY get our game as best as we can.

Its like a race between cars. Lets say a laggy setup is, for instance, a VW Polo, and a lag free setup is a F1 racer. YES, you can go pretty fast in the polo, and do some impressive stuff, but the polo is never going to beat the F1 car in a race.

We need to be driving F1 cars. When you buy a F1 car, it might take you a while to get used to the speed, but when you do, you can do a lot better than you can in your VW polo. Lag free is the way to go.